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Why the fall had to occur

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posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 07:31 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman




Kinda disagree
Kinda agree
...We Christians who have entered a relationship with God are in a "all ready but not yet" situation .This "now and later" situation is a fluctuation within our minds we search to clarify .A battle if you will between love and hate or sin and holiness . Romans 7 brings this out " 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.…"




posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 08:42 AM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Raggedyman




Kinda disagree
Kinda agree
...We Christians who have entered a relationship with God are in a "all ready but not yet" situation .This "now and later" situation is a fluctuation within our minds we search to clarify .A battle if you will between love and hate or sin and holiness . Romans 7 brings this out " 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.…"



Hmm, yep, spot on
Sin is a virus inside of us
The vaccination is redemption when Christ returns
Thy kingdom come Thy will be done, in me.

Great verse, wish more Christians understood it



posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 01:54 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Again, watch the video. You will either except the answer or you won't.


The video is stupid. Your starting from a place where you have already accepted that a bunch of # actually happened. You literally have to believe in some crazy # to get this far into this explanation. All the while you are forgetting to bring any proof that this god you believe in, even exists.

Shouldn’t we start with proving that this god of yours is real? before you start attributing all of these motivations to him? It looks a lot like you are projecting your own motivations onto this thing. It is a way for you to feel above others. You can point around at people and arbitrarily judge them by your fav book. The book tells you what to like and what not to like, and then you expand on it to include anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just a book. A fictional book full of the things that people believed thousands of years ago. Meanwhile, some of us already know not to be dicks to people while your still spouting about adam and eve and atonement for things that never happened to a god that doesn’t exist. Those stories are old man. God isn’t real. That stuff didn’t happen.

I see no dif between islam and christianity. Both are worthless at anything except creating people who think they need to force others to comply with them.

Prove any god exists before you start telling people what he’s like.


Existence of everything, the whole universe, in its incredibly complex and varied form, despite 13.4 billion years of entropy, is a pretty good evidence of something way beyond science.

I mean, science tells us that nearly everything evolved from less complex forms. How did that entropy reversal happen and why is it now (measurably) going the other way?

Science is just another mythology, full of nonsense like 'anti-entropic' actions performed randomly by nothing, like the superluminal expansion of the universe, like that a universe-massive super-singularity could actually ever expand (surely it would attract, capture and collapse any existing mass to the singularity, for eternity), like quantum superposition and Pauli exclusion somehow don't negate the idea of creation of that super-singularity from quantum fluctuation. Like a multi-worlds hypothesis which jibes against the measurable fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (it would have to be infinitely creatable to bifurcate the existing universe into new ones all the time).

And, of course, you'd see Christianity and Islam as essentially the same.



Anti entropic? You see that huge ball of gas burning in the sky sometimes? You know, the one that powers pretty much every reaction that takes place on this planet? The one constantly adding energy to this world? You ever see that?


That big ball is spraying out all its energy into space. Distributing and dissipating itself. It is the very engine of entropy.

The energy that it emanates from it, once went into it. The Sun does not 'make' energy, it converts some of the mass to energy through nuclear fusion.

When it has consumed itself and flung enough into space, it will go cold. Then it will still loose energy until even its smallest particles dissipate into space in the heat death of the universe.

It has been 'entropying' like this for tens of billions of years. But how did it get its start?

Why did enough 'Big Bang' energy convert itself into matter and then clump enough to attract gravitationally?

The same entropy, at the same rate that is killing the Sun today, despite its condensed mass, were acting upon it before its birth?
Lol, oh my goodness. This is stuff they teach fifth graders man. The sun is supplying the earth with energy. Even though it is in a state of entropy, this energy bathes our entire world as it disipates. Large masses of matter have a proportional gravitational pull on objects which enter it’s field.


You seem to have forgotten that the stuff that is dissipating now must have come from somewhere and assembled rather than dissipating.

How?
Gravity. You do know how stars and planets form? This isn’t new science.


... and how did gravity happen?

... and before you say mass causes gravity, that also is a non-answer. How did we get mass?

... and mass is a type of energy, where did the energy come from?

... and before you suggest a singularity, that is just a point of gravity and mass. It doesn't explain their existence but is part the entirely circular non-answer.

How?
for me to say I don’t know would be reasonable answer. For anyone to say that it must be a God is a completely unreasonable answer that has no physical evidence to support it. I don’t have an answer for everything, And I want to invent one that doesn’t have testable results. So why would you except an answer that has no testable results?



posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 01:59 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Woodcarver

The subject isn't you Woody, it's understanding the bible
You don't and pretending you do is silly

If you are a Hebrew and brake the Hebrew law, then you will be punished according to Hebrew law
Want to live outside of Hebrew law, leave

Is that so hard for you to understand

You so eloquently explained my point to yourself
Stop being silly, it's not a good look
You might think this or that about your God but you can’t prove any of it. So it’s just your opinion, just like all of the other opinions that contradict yours. In the end what are you left with just your own thoughts.



posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 02:42 PM
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originally posted by: Dcopymope

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Dcopymope

It's not complicated, and it's not about some "magic apple", or whatever, either.

God created people in His own image, and that meant giving people the freedom to choose. Why did He do this? God didn't want, as the video states, "automatons"; He wanted people who could choose to love Him, and choose to follow His perfect will. No freedom to choose, no actual love. A robot can't love you, even if programmed to state that it does.

Since people were given a choice, it's a safe bet that some will choose the wrong thing. Hence, God decided fro the before the beginning to take care of that as well. He came in the form of a man, and bled and died in our place, paying the price for our sins. He then rose, defeating death.

Why, someone will now ask, did God make death the penalty for sin? Laws are useless unless they are enforced. A law with no punishment isn't a law at all. Now, given that laws demand consequences if broken, and remembering free will, God's plan had to include that way of salvation, Himself.


You're right, it's not complicated, but the simple answer, that God knew that some, as you put it would make the wrong choice, has not been a good enough answer for those who ask the typical questions stemming from Adam and Even's temptation in Eden, which, you know, is why they keep asking it. I as well have not been happy with the responses Christians give to such answers either, so that's why I made the video to give an in-depth, yet straight forward answer I have yet to see anyone give anywhere, to spell it out for them. As I explain, it was more than just about us having a mind of our own, and God knowing this to be so. There is a specific reason why his son was predestined to be the lamb slain for our sins before the six day creation. The reason is simple, as far as God was concerned, "all have sinned and come short of his glory", as Paul stated in Romans. He didn't say "some will sin", or "some will make the wrong choice", he said " ALL have sinned", which is basically a shining example of God declaring the end from the beginning, that there is no one in heaven or earth that is righteous except him. All HAVE sinned as Adam sinned, because what we call the future has already occurred from Gods vantage point.


Yes, all have sinned. Poor wording on my part, stating "some". It's a good video, and short enough that people will watch. Too long, too many details, and a lot of folks will tune out.

It's truly amazing the lengths to which some will go, to try and avoid the simple truth, isn't it? Some of the "explanations" given in this thread are more fantastical than anything actually in the Bible, and yet the people pushing them don't understand, or perhaps, as I suspect in some cases, don't want to understand. They seem to prefer to live in darkness, and pretend nothing is wrong. Not much originality, either, of course. Same old foolishness, that we can see in any argument against Christian faith, and as usual, corrections are met with even worse silliness.

You have presented truth, though, and some others here as well, and that's all we can do. We don't make the seeds grow; we just spread them around, and wait. Excellent thread for that, one of the better ones I have seen in some time, here or in other places online!



posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 03:02 PM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: Woodcarver
I am daily convinced that christians are crazy and should not be given positions of power.


So tolerant of you....

....not.
Did you see the post i was responding to? Can you imagine what would happen if one of these guys had any power in this world? If they were able to make laws with their twisted ideas about how the world operates? I don’t want people who think that all himans are evil to have power over others. To be able to make decisions for us based on their beliefs which cannot be proven. I think that is pretty reasonable of me.

Oh wait, you’re on their side. You think the punishment for sin is death too?

Does anyone have any way to prove what they are saying? Or is this just a big pat on the back circle jerk? You all seem to relish in accepting bad ideas. That will be religions downfall. You will all make yourselves obsolete in fear of offending your own imaginary ghosts. Step aside and let reasonable people do real work.


Yes, I did see. I also see, all around me, in the news daily, in the lives of people, the results of sin, and how harmful it is. Plus, you are missing a key point here. When one speaks of the wages of sin being death, that doesn't mean the death penalty for any little infraction; it means death eternal, a separation from God, forever. It's meant in a far more spiritual sense. There are some sins for which physical death is the penalty, but that's not what we are discussing here. I'd bet you already know this, too, and are simply seeking to excuse your lack of respect and tolerance for the beliefs of other people.

You also seem to ignore the fact that the United States, the country which respects individual rights and freedom ore than any other in the history of the world, was founded upon Christian principles. The freedom to believe as one chooses, or not to believe, and to not be forced into any belief system, is a foundation of this country. So, when you act as though Christians in positions of authority would automatically mean they'd be doing evil things, you ignore history, and reality.

No one stated, either, that "all humans are evil"; what was actually stated was that all humans sin. That is a fact. Look around you. Any parent can tell you that no one teaches a child to disobey, but all children do so, and they start very young. A little toddler knows how to break his parents' rules. It's not really a stretch to accept that we do the same with God. There isn't a person alive who hasn't done something wrong, who is capable of making even the smallest decision.

The biggest thing you seem to be missing here is that this isn't about bad ideas, as you claim; it's about good news. Yes, all sin, all break the rules. However, the point you continue to overlook is that God already paid the penalty for this, in our place, so that all can be forgiven, if they choose. By grace, through faith, because He paid the price for us, every wrong we do can be washed away, forgiven. That isn't a "bad idea; that's an amazing display of love.

Your real issue seems to be that you cannot accept that God is real. You demand proof. You want to claim that believing without proof is not good, but you believe a lot of things for which you have no proof. All around us we can see creation. More and more, scientists who aren't even Christian are stating that someone had to have created everything, that there must be a designer, to make any sense of everything they can see.

The tragedy here is that so many who don't want to believe are rejecting God not because of a lack of evidence, but because of a deep-seated fear, that they will have to account for themselves, if they accept that God is real. All will certainly face an accounting, but those who accept what Jesus did for us know that the penalty for their wrong is already paid. There is no need for fear.

As a parent, I'd die to save the life of any one of my children. In doing so, I'd be dead. God is far greater than I, and death cannot defeat Him. What's so complicated about that?



posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 04:07 PM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver
Existence of everything, the whole universe, in its incredibly complex and varied form, despite 13.4 billion years of entropy, is a pretty good evidence of something way beyond science.

I mean, science tells us that nearly everything evolved from less complex forms. How did that entropy reversal happen and why is it now (measurably) going the other way?

Science is just another mythology, full of nonsense like 'anti-entropic' actions performed randomly by nothing, like the superluminal expansion of the universe, like that a universe-massive super-singularity could actually ever expand (surely it would attract, capture and collapse any existing mass to the singularity, for eternity), like quantum superposition and Pauli exclusion somehow don't negate the idea of creation of that super-singularity from quantum fluctuation. Like a multi-worlds hypothesis which jibes against the measurable fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (it would have to be infinitely creatable to bifurcate the existing universe into new ones all the time).

And, of course, you'd see Christianity and Islam as essentially the same.



Anti entropic? You see that huge ball of gas burning in the sky sometimes? You know, the one that powers pretty much every reaction that takes place on this planet? The one constantly adding energy to this world? You ever see that?


That big ball is spraying out all its energy into space. Distributing and dissipating itself. It is the very engine of entropy.

The energy that it emanates from it, once went into it. The Sun does not 'make' energy, it converts some of the mass to energy through nuclear fusion.

When it has consumed itself and flung enough into space, it will go cold. Then it will still loose energy until even its smallest particles dissipate into space in the heat death of the universe.

It has been 'entropying' like this for tens of billions of years. But how did it get its start?

Why did enough 'Big Bang' energy convert itself into matter and then clump enough to attract gravitationally?

The same entropy, at the same rate that is killing the Sun today, despite its condensed mass, were acting upon it before its birth?
Lol, oh my goodness. This is stuff they teach fifth graders man. The sun is supplying the earth with energy. Even though it is in a state of entropy, this energy bathes our entire world as it disipates. Large masses of matter have a proportional gravitational pull on objects which enter it’s field.


You seem to have forgotten that the stuff that is dissipating now must have come from somewhere and assembled rather than dissipating.

How?
Gravity. You do know how stars and planets form? This isn’t new science.


... and how did gravity happen?

... and before you say mass causes gravity, that also is a non-answer. How did we get mass?

... and mass is a type of energy, where did the energy come from?

... and before you suggest a singularity, that is just a point of gravity and mass. It doesn't explain their existence but is part the entirely circular non-answer.

How?
for me to say I don’t know would be reasonable answer.


No, it is very definitely an un-reasoned answer. No reasoning at all is required to admit ignorance.

You actually need spend some time reasoning about such things, and consider the possibilities, even in the framework of ignorance, to come to a reasonable conclusion.

There is order, process and mathematical form to all things we have observed in the universe so far. This is why science works.

So, there are reasonable answers, but they must come out of a process of reasoning.


For anyone to say that it must be a God is a completely unreasonable answer that has no physical evidence to support it.


Since the universe exists, and time progresses, it IS reasonable to suggest that it began.

Since the universe is incredibly varied and complex, and seems to follow rules, it may have been constructed. If it were constructed, there must be a constructor as one possibility for the existence of the universe.

Science tells us that the structured order of all matter must degrade over time. Science does not explain why the whole universe isn't all in the simplest lowest energy state, despite the fact that we can see that all things flow towards such entropy. The best science can do is to propose a beginning of simplicity (and therefore high entropy) and that over time this developed variation and difference to the extreme levels observed now. That process is anti-entropic and does not fit with known science.

The idea of an anti-entropic direction of the early universe integrates very well with the idea of a constructor of the universe who has hyper-intelligent attributes. They rationally reinforce each other as paradigms. There is rationality and reasonableness in such a paradigm.

To suggest that a pre-state of nothingness, expanded and condensed into the known universe, driven by random forces, is the unreasonable and unreasoned conclusion. We know from observation and testing that the process of change of states of matter and energy do not go in that direction - ever. That is why the laws of Thermodynamics are called laws, rather than postulates.


except an answer that has no testable results?


But it is the pseudo-scientific conclusion that has no testable results. It is unreasonable.

edit on 21/12/2017 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 05:07 PM
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Just as I expected. Satan did nothing wrong!

#hailsatan



posted on Dec, 21 2017 @ 07:57 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Just as I expected. Satan did nothing wrong!

#hailsatan


I didn't bother answering you because that is so clearly and obviously not true.

Satan led a rebellion against God.

Satan induced the initial disobedience of mankind.

There are suggestions in the Bible that Satan tried to destroy all of Creation, was defeated and is imprisoned here on Earth.

It is recorded that the fall of mankind introduced death into the world. Since Satan was the cause of the fall, that makes Satan responsible, by his actions, of which he was aware of the consequences, for the death of every single human - ever.

Satan is directly spoken of as a liar, destroyer and a murderer.

He has done as much wrong as he can.

Perhaps you would also like to suggest that Hitler or Stalin were good people, too? I mean, exactly what crimes did they commit?



edit on 21/12/2017 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 22 2017 @ 03:39 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Just as I expected. Satan did nothing wrong!

#hailsatan


I didn't bother answering you because that is so clearly and obviously not true.

Satan led a rebellion against God.

Satan induced the initial disobedience of mankind.

There are suggestions in the Bible that Satan tried to destroy all of Creation, was defeated and is imprisoned here on Earth.

It is recorded that the fall of mankind introduced death into the world. Since Satan was the cause of the fall, that makes Satan responsible, by his actions, of which he was aware of the consequences, for the death of every single human - ever.

Satan is directly spoken of as a liar, destroyer and a murderer.

He has done as much wrong as he can.

Perhaps you would also like to suggest that Hitler or Stalin were good people, too? I mean, exactly what crimes did they commit?


What did satan do that was so bad in the bible? The stories say that he led a rebellion against god, but god was doing all kinds of horrible things to humans. Drowning us, burning us, poor Job? Maybe satan saw all of this and heroed up and fought back against god for mistreating us so much? Satan sounds like the hero in those stories.



posted on Dec, 22 2017 @ 04:24 PM
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a reply to: Woodcarver




What did satan do that was so bad in the bible?
Starting in the garden in Genesis there is a narrative that is being built and developed .Remember that God has a plan but does not want to show His hand and so in many cases and issues it only becomes obvious after the fact . That is why Paul wrote that if they (the powers of darkness) had know they would not have crucified The Lord of Glory .
But right from the get go God talks about the womans seed that would crush his head .



posted on Dec, 22 2017 @ 09:42 PM
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a reply to: chr0naut

Maybe it is more clear to you than it is me.

The Bible may call him things, but I was more interested in specific accounts.

Such as the Garden of Eden and the fall of man. But I disagree that was Satan.

I disagree he was even there. Can you show me the verse that says as much?

The serpent in the Garden was cursed to crawl on his belly all his days.

Yet Satan has no problem walking around, not even in a serpentine form.

I understand that in Revelation 12:9 says, "that ancient serpent, which is the Devil" but it neglects to reference the Garden of Eden. It could be any ancient serpent, or just referring to the cunning of serpents.

Hitler gassed the Jews.

God genocided the Cannanites.

Perhaps poor comparisons..

My only point to all of it is the Bible really only alludes to Satan being the big bad guy but very little of his "evil" is recorded.

Scapegoat.



posted on Dec, 23 2017 @ 04:45 AM
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It wasn't Satan that approved of captive war wives. It wasn't Satan that said woman caught while being raped could be sold to the rapist for shekels. It wasn't Satan who said a woman who had her innocence taken had to marry her rapist. It wasn't Satan that laid ground rules for slavery. Satan never said anything about killing priests, witches, fortunetellers, homosexuals, nonbelievers, adherents of other religions, false prophets (nor does he create them to then call them out), entire towns if even one person was a non believer. Let me stop to repeat that.. Deuteronomy 13:13-19. Kill everyone in town, if just one person there worships another God. That means YOU could have lived there, and been murdered, just because your neighbor didn't buy into your God... It was not Satan who said to kill woman on their wedding nights, if they were found to be spoiled.. Satan never killed a guy working on the Sabbath. Satan never commanded the killing of the mere sons of sinners. I've never heard Satan say, kill in the name of Satan. God has said as much though. Jeremiah 48:10. It wasn't Satan that created a deluge to try to fix the problem of sin. By the way.. horrible choice since it was allegedly Satan's fault to begin with. Why not solve THAT problem... I can't recall Satan demanding a blood sacrifice? I don't remember when Satan thought killing his own Son was a good idea either. I don't recall Satan empowering his followers, in return for a sacrifice (human) but I recall when God did (Jephthah and his daughter). I can't recall when Satan used any of his 'powers' to manipulate free will. I sure as hell know God does it though. Exodus, strong delusions, lying spirits.. Threats, coercion, bribes.. Satan never asked anyone to mutilate their genitals.

Now, as you probably know from seeing me around and interacting a couple times..

I don't believe any of it.

But you are really trying to tell me Satan is the bad guy?

If Satan is the ultimate source of man's sin, why has ALL humanity been punished?

Why not ALL the angels, for example? Humans why?

It makes so little sense from so many angles.

edit on 12-23-2017 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 23 2017 @ 05:16 AM
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originally posted by: chr0naut
Perhaps you would also like to suggest that Hitler or Stalin were good people, too? I mean, exactly what crimes did they commit?

Honestly that would be in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. I say that having confidence neither of us believe Hitler, Stalin, or their ilk, were/are good people. Some people do believe that they were, however. Hitler especially. You and I are able to look at Hitler and history, and see that he was most certainly not a good man. How did we draw these conclusions? Perhaps a silly question to ask, because to most it is plainly obvious.

So is it a matter of, actions speak louder than words?

Is Hitler bad, because of his actions? Or his words? Or both?

If at the end of the day, his actions, speak louder than any words.. why does the same logic not apply to God? Hitler conned the bulk of nation into believing his ideologies were right. Which justified his actions in the minds of his supporters.

That is exactly what people do with the Old Testament. "They were sinners".. "God knew they would sin eventually".. "Their bloodline would have had sinners"...

So God was justified?

But hey Hitler only killed 3 million Jews give or take. He's the real villain.

A drop in the barrel when it comes to God's tally. And you know what? Who are we to say the Holocaust and Hitler wasn't God's way of punishing the Jews for rejecting Jesus. I mean it is his m.o. after all.

For the record, screw Hitler and the Final Solution.
edit on 12-23-2017 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 23 2017 @ 07:11 AM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer

People do change their minds the better they understand



posted on Dec, 23 2017 @ 07:21 AM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer




Why not ALL the angels, for example?
The Bible teaches that there is no redemption for the Angels ...



posted on Dec, 23 2017 @ 11:57 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

I'm questioning the logic behind it.



posted on Dec, 23 2017 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer




I'm questioning the logic behind it.
The logic is in the grand narrative of redemption and the mystery of sin . Did you ever walk into a movie that was 3/4 done and figure there is something missing to the story ? Or for that matter just missing one scene while making more popcorn .... Such is the Biblical narrative where tiny details are suck big important dot's to connect .



posted on Dec, 23 2017 @ 07:10 PM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Just as I expected. Satan did nothing wrong!

#hailsatan


I didn't bother answering you because that is so clearly and obviously not true.

Satan led a rebellion against God.

Satan induced the initial disobedience of mankind.

There are suggestions in the Bible that Satan tried to destroy all of Creation, was defeated and is imprisoned here on Earth.

It is recorded that the fall of mankind introduced death into the world. Since Satan was the cause of the fall, that makes Satan responsible, by his actions, of which he was aware of the consequences, for the death of every single human - ever.

Satan is directly spoken of as a liar, destroyer and a murderer.

He has done as much wrong as he can.

Perhaps you would also like to suggest that Hitler or Stalin were good people, too? I mean, exactly what crimes did they commit?


What did satan do that was so bad in the bible? The stories say that he led a rebellion against god, but god was doing all kinds of horrible things to humans. Drowning us, burning us, poor Job? Maybe satan saw all of this and heroed up and fought back against god for mistreating us so much? Satan sounds like the hero in those stories.


It was Satan who did all those things to Job.

Satan went to God to get permission to "test" Job's faith and would have killed Job if God had not forbidden it.



posted on Dec, 23 2017 @ 07:22 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: chr0naut
Perhaps you would also like to suggest that Hitler or Stalin were good people, too? I mean, exactly what crimes did they commit?

Honestly that would be in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. I say that having confidence neither of us believe Hitler, Stalin, or their ilk, were/are good people. Some people do believe that they were, however. Hitler especially. You and I are able to look at Hitler and history, and see that he was most certainly not a good man. How did we draw these conclusions? Perhaps a silly question to ask, because to most it is plainly obvious.

So is it a matter of, actions speak louder than words?

Is Hitler bad, because of his actions? Or his words? Or both?

If at the end of the day, his actions, speak louder than any words.. why does the same logic not apply to God? Hitler conned the bulk of nation into believing his ideologies were right. Which justified his actions in the minds of his supporters.

That is exactly what people do with the Old Testament. "They were sinners".. "God knew they would sin eventually".. "Their bloodline would have had sinners"...

So God was justified?

But hey Hitler only killed 3 million Jews give or take. He's the real villain.

A drop in the barrel when it comes to God's tally. And you know what? Who are we to say the Holocaust and Hitler wasn't God's way of punishing the Jews for rejecting Jesus. I mean it is his m.o. after all.

For the record, screw Hitler and the Final Solution.


How many people did God directly kill?

In contrast, how many have died as a consequence of their actions or of the actions of others?

You are suggesting that God is responsible for committing sin because He gave us the freedom to choose.

If God's goal was our own self determination, He has achieved it. It is a good thing that we are not automata. A consequence of having such a moral choice is that we are free to choose evil. This does not mean that God made evil or committed evil.




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