Why the fall had to occur

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

He didn't send his only begotten son for nothing. Believe in him with all your heart, mind and soul, repent of your sins and you shall be saved.

assuming that you are into one of the many versions of a christian god, (and that it’s real) at this moment, there are roughly 2 billion christians in the world. That is only about 30% of the world’s population.

So...... your god is doing a piss poor job of convincing anyone of anything. I hate to bring this up, but, even Trump has a better approval rating.

a reply to: Woodcarver

The christians who “get” the story that you’re selling consists of you. I’ve never found two christians who agree with eachother about everything.

Because of the new life and the growth of the individual being created for a special purpose I would think there should be the differences . Using the metaphor of a stone building not made with human hands it would be hard to find two identical stones in the field . Laying aside the religious component I would challenge you to even find identical human twins that agree 100 % on everything about life let alone two other humans working in the same vocation.

a reply to: Woodcarver

This isn't about Donald Trump, this is about God and Satan. God wins in the end, so his "approval rating" will be much higher than any chump in a monkey suit in the end, of which there will be billions upon billions. If you want to talk about politics, or about something else other than God, then go to those forums and stop wasting my time with these silly arguments.

a reply to: Dcopymope

That's fine, it's gnostic, but not Gnosticism. However, who decided what was in the Bible?

a reply to: Dcopymope

Yay your god (if it exists)

Set up Adam and Eve (if they existed) to fail.
Kills millions.
Gets jealous.
Is vindictive.

This is your so called god of kindness?

The devil (if it exists) wasn’t even remotely as evil as your god (if it exists).

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Atonement for our sins of course, of which Adam and Eve brought about, which I make very clear was going to happen whether they ate of the tree that introduced sin into the world or not. I explain why God put the tree in the garden in the video, enjoy.

Why would a god need such a complicated and convoluted process to bring about a situation that requires us to be in some kind of debt to him? It seems the less your story makes actual sense, the more mysterious god has to be to explain the need for it to be there.

I’m guessing god didn’t tell you any of this? You just figured it all out on your own?

Why would we create a learning algorithm, and train it to produce the outcome we wanted, when we could just achieve the outcome without creating the algorithm at all?

Perhaps God was granting us self-determination.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

The christians who “get” the story that you’re selling consists of you. I’ve never found two christians who agree with eachother about everything.

Because of the new life and the growth of the individual being created for a special purpose I would think there should be the differences . Using the metaphor of a stone building not made with human hands it would be hard to find two identical stones in the field . Laying aside the religious component I would challenge you to even find identical human twins that agree 100 % on everything about life let alone two other humans working in the same vocation.

You’re right, people rarely agree on opinions and ideas. However, one thing everybody can agree with is positive evidence that something exists. I believe in apples, and i bet you do to. We belive in them because we have both held them, bit into one, and tasted them. Even someone who has never seen one could easily be convinced by showing him one and handing it to him.

You’re convinced that god exists because you believe in him. Not because you can feel him or see him. If you could feel him or see him, then you wouldn’t need faith. In fact, if you could feel him or see him, it would directly contradict the most important doctrine.

Circular argument. You believe in it because you believe in it.

originally posted by: jokei
a reply to: Woodcarver

Your genitals make you a bad and sinful person.

Actually, the brain is the largest sexual organ.

a reply to: TobyFlenderson

God

(2 Timothy 3:15-17) "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: TobyFlenderson

God

(2 Timothy 3:15-17) "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Your book is inspired by your god because someone in your book says so?

That’s some circular logic.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You’re right, people rarely agree on opinions and ideas. However, one thing everybody can agree with is positive evidence that something exists.

I think that even studies into science have different rabbit holes they venture down to find answers to some of the same questions . They (both schools of thought ) believe it to exist but don't have the Empirical proof yet .

You’re convinced that god exists because you believe in him. Not because you can feel him or see him. If you could feel him or see him, then you wouldn’t need faith. In fact, if you could feel him or see him, it would directly contradict the most important doctrine.

Absolutely . He (God) makes that clear ...Its a act of faith on my part and a lack of faith on your part . People search for love because they just know its a real thing because of what our own hearts are capable of . Now for you to put your own life on the line may have been because of money or maybe it was fame or a sense of responsibility but any of those reasons could also be construed as just being crazy .

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Dcopymope

Yay your god (if it exists)

Set up Adam and Eve (if they existed) to fail.

He set it up that way because God knowing the future, knew that the fall was going to occur eventually. All God was doing was speeding up the inevitable.

originally posted by: TerryDon79Kills millions.

Those he killed were killed because they were beyond the point of return. Its not about his "jealousy", "vindictiveness", etc, God is very patient. The Bible from beginning to end is all about Jesus Christ, and that's what was at stake, the chance for our salvation, and if you have to kill millions, so save countless billions, then you do it.

(Deuteronomy 20:16-18) "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: [17] But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: [18] That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God."

(Acts 13:19-23) "And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. [20] And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. [21] And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. [22] And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. [23] Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:"

a reply to: Dcopymope

So you justify all the evilness done by your god, in your book because “god”?

Yet the devil still hasn’t done anywhere near as much bad as your god, according to your book. Seems like your god is actually the evil one.

Why would a god need such a complicated and convoluted process to give us self-determination?

Religiously minded folks invent increasingly more complicated explanations and assumptions, to explain why their gods contradict the very predictable world around us. They try to shoehorn in a god that needs an increasingly complicated explanation for why he remains undetectable. This is the opposite of Occam’s razor. But this is what you get when you try to pluck explanations from ancient works of fiction. It’s like trying to explain the world based on star wars books. There is parts of the story that don’t make sense, and there are parts completly missing. Because it was always a work of fiction.

Smart people figured out a long time ago that if you want to figure out the world and the people in it, you should study the world and the people in it. Not some book or church that imprisons people for pointing out that the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth.

When we observe our actual world and others, we see a universe that unfolds beautifully under natural circumstances. A seemingly infinite amount of predictable functions that follow very specific processes when two or more specific particles interact. It is complex but we are able to make very accurite predictions based on our, oh so limited understanding of it.

Why not leave it at that? Why invent a being with such odd motivations? It’s certainly not an obvious thing that is easily provable. It’s an idea that relies on it’s unprovability. We can see it’s not needed to explain anything. Even this atonement idea, or sacrifice as we pointed out earlier that firemen, police, and even parents and friends can make sacrifices to make everyone’s life a little better. No god’s need apply.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Again, watch the video. You will either except the answer or you won't.

The video is stupid. Your starting from a place where you have already accepted that a bunch of # actually happened. You literally have to believe in some crazy # to get this far into this explanation. All the while you are forgetting to bring any proof that this god you believe in, even exists.

Shouldn’t we start with proving that this god of yours is real? before you start attributing all of these motivations to him? It looks a lot like you are projecting your own motivations onto this thing. It is a way for you to feel above others. You can point around at people and arbitrarily judge them by your fav book. The book tells you what to like and what not to like, and then you expand on it to include anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just a book. A fictional book full of the things that people believed thousands of years ago. Meanwhile, some of us already know not to be dicks to people while your still spouting about adam and eve and atonement for things that never happened to a god that doesn’t exist. Those stories are old man. God isn’t real. That stuff didn’t happen.

I see no dif between islam and christianity. Both are worthless at anything except creating people who think they need to force others to comply with them.

Prove any god exists before you start telling people what he’s like.

Existence of everything, the whole universe, in its incredibly complex and varied form, despite 13.4 billion years of entropy, is a pretty good evidence of something way beyond science.

I mean, science tells us that nearly everything evolved from less complex forms. How did that entropy reversal happen and why is it now (measurably) going the other way?

Science is just another mythology, full of nonsense:

- Like this universe could arise by 'anti-entropic' actions, performed randomly, by nothing.

- Like the superluminal expansion of the universe, when we know the reason for the 'c' limit and that mass cannot move like that.

- Like that a universe-massive super-singularity could actually ever expand (surely it would attract, capture and collapse any existing mass intro the singularity, for eternity).

- Like Pauli exclusion (and experimentally, the Casimir effect) somehow doesn't negate the idea of creation of that super-singularity from a quantum fluctuation.

- Like a multi-worlds hypothesis which jibes against the measurable fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (it would have to be infinitely creatable to bifurcate the existing universe into new ones all the time).

And, of course, you'd see Christianity and Islam as essentially the same, arguably because you know little of them and therefore understand less.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

You’re right, people rarely agree on opinions and ideas. However, one thing everybody can agree with is positive evidence that something exists.

I think that even studies into science have different rabbit holes they venture down to find answers to some of the same questions . They (both schools of thought ) believe it to exist but don't have the Empirical proof yet .

You’re convinced that god exists because you believe in him. Not because you can feel him or see him. If you could feel him or see him, then you wouldn’t need faith. In fact, if you could feel him or see him, it would directly contradict the most important doctrine.

Absolutely . He (God) makes that clear ...Its a act of faith on my part and a lack of faith on your part . People search for love because they just know its a real thing because of what our own hearts are capable of . Now for you to put your own life on the line may have been because of money or maybe it was fame or a sense of responsibility but any of those reasons could also be construed as just being crazy .

which scientific theory that we hold as true, has 0% evidence for it’s explanation?

I don’t lack faith in god, just like i don’t lack faith in dragons and unicorns. I know they are myths, because we know where the stories came from. I just don’t believe in your claims. Prove your claim.

Love? Do you mean our mammalian primate instinct to form family units and procreate? Yea? Apes, monkeys, wolves, elephants, dolphins, etc??? Yea, that’s not faith my friend. That is biological chemistry. Not crazy. Crazy is believing in things that aren’t real. Especially after you are shown time and again why it could not be real.

a reply to: Woodcarver

When we observe our actual world and others, we see a universe that unfolds beautifully under natural circumstances. A seemingly infinite amount of predictable functions that follow very specific processes when two or more specific particles interact.

We are lead to believe that science has it all figured out but the news headlines daily say that scientist were "surprised" or though one thing that turns out to not be true and its back to the drawing board . A really big issue science is having as of late is a convergence of the idea of the self . They know its true but have not explained it very well and despite their attempt to create a AI are finding that they have to come up with a solution to address the soul question in a kind of metaphysical way or in other words a religious way .

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Again, watch the video. You will either except the answer or you won't.

The video is stupid. Your starting from a place where you have already accepted that a bunch of # actually happened. You literally have to believe in some crazy # to get this far into this explanation. All the while you are forgetting to bring any proof that this god you believe in, even exists.

Shouldn’t we start with proving that this god of yours is real? before you start attributing all of these motivations to him? It looks a lot like you are projecting your own motivations onto this thing. It is a way for you to feel above others. You can point around at people and arbitrarily judge them by your fav book. The book tells you what to like and what not to like, and then you expand on it to include anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just a book. A fictional book full of the things that people believed thousands of years ago. Meanwhile, some of us already know not to be dicks to people while your still spouting about adam and eve and atonement for things that never happened to a god that doesn’t exist. Those stories are old man. God isn’t real. That stuff didn’t happen.

I see no dif between islam and christianity. Both are worthless at anything except creating people who think they need to force others to comply with them.

Prove any god exists before you start telling people what he’s like.

Existence of everything, the whole universe, in its incredibly complex and varied form, despite 13.4 billion years of entropy, is a pretty good evidence of something way beyond science.

I mean, science tells us that nearly everything evolved from less complex forms. How did that entropy reversal happen and why is it now (measurably) going the other way?

Science is just another mythology, full of nonsense like 'anti-entropic' actions performed randomly by nothing, like the superluminal expansion of the universe, like that a universe-massive super-singularity could actually ever expand (surely it would attract, capture and collapse any existing mass to the singularity, for eternity), like quantum superposition and Pauli exclusion somehow don't negate the idea of creation of that super-singularity from quantum fluctuation. Like a multi-worlds hypothesis which jibes against the measurable fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (it would have to be infinitely creatable to bifurcate the existing universe into new ones all the time).

And, of course, you'd see Christianity and Islam as essentially the same.

Anti entropic? You see that huge ball of gas burning in the sky sometimes? You know, the one that powers pretty much every reaction that takes place on this planet? The one constantly adding energy to this world? You ever see that?

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Dcopymope

So you justify all the evilness done by your god, in your book because “god”?

Yet the devil still hasn’t done anywhere near as much bad as your god, according to your book. Seems like your god is actually the evil one.

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

When we observe our actual world and others, we see a universe that unfolds beautifully under natural circumstances. A seemingly infinite amount of predictable functions that follow very specific processes when two or more specific particles interact.

We are lead to believe that science has it all figured out but the news headlines daily say that scientist were "surprised" or though one thing that turns out to not be true and its back to the drawing board . A really big issue science is having as of late is a convergence of the idea of the self . They know its true but have not explained it very well and despite their attempt to create a AI are finding that they have to come up with a solution to address the soul question in a kind of metaphysical way or in other words a religious way .

nobody thinks science has it all figured out. Pretty much everybody knows that our understanding of the physical properties that we live with is always increasing. Nobody thinks they have all the answers.

We do understand a great bit though, right? We do know a lot right? It’s an amazing world when you get out from the oppressive thumb of religion. I’m pretty impressed with what we have figured out. I have literally been to the edge of space. (Not that you’d be impressed. ) i have seen things smaller than molecules. We have catagorized millions of animals with their dna, I have a highly more advanced computer in my pocket, than the one they used to get to the moon. Don’t make lite of what we do know. It’s far more than your book full of reasons to stone people, talking animals, and literally thousands of zombies. Did you know your book has thousands of zombies? has done for us.