Trump Supporters Believing Their Own Lies.

Geez; Even a Marginal Corp. Income Tax rate of 150% won't mean much, if the Biggies, like G.E. a few years ago, don't pay one thin dime of Corporate Income Tax. In any case, this money gets taxed twice. The second rate is when the disparate humans count it as income. Balancing a more reasonable "MARGINAL" rate at Corporate, means less finagling over tax dodges.

In the end, I suspect it's going to raise absolute Corporate taxes. But instead of an area Lawn Boy sprinkler, it's going to be more of a Rain Bird's stream. And putting direct streams of Capital towards the Corporation's goals, should help everyone, except the Tax Accountants. I think that even the mighty G.E. Corp. got lost in these tax avoidance "weeds", in the last decade.

I guess putting a businessman in at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. means that the Gov't is now open to do business, again. The Obama Administration was running our economy with the choke on, for the last eight years. The crisis may have benefited from this, in the first two or three years, but the last four or five, have hurt us.

Something else, which is important, is that Gov't collected statistics on our economy, run about a year to 18 months, behind what's actually going on, down on Main Street. I got a kick out of Fed Chairman, Volker's idea of hitting the haberdasheries, and Tabac shops to get his thumb on the pulse of the economy. Fancy mens' neck ties, and decent Cigars, were for him a bell weather, for how things were doing, at that moment. Within respectable limits, it gave him a twelve month jump start, on the stale Gov't financials. The Federal Gov't is now so huge, that getting these reports together, is one great time consuming endeavor.

If President Trump can get this data collection machine's delays, down to one quarter, or three months, by streamlining the statistics, I believe this will sharpen up the Gov't responses to fluctuations in the economy.

originally posted by: Outlier13
a reply to: soberbacchus

Again you cannot answer a simple question. Explain to me how a corporate tax rate cut is going to personally hurt you. Or will you continue to avoid the question and deflect in typical liberal ignorance fashion?

One last time.

How is a corporate tax rate cut going to personally hurt you?

The overall corporate rate matters far less than what is available for the average publicly held corporation to write off. If you're speaking of lowering the rate and not closing such loopholes as to decrease the corporations entire tax liability so that it is paying less in taxes, it decreases the amount of money available to the government.

With less money available to the government one of a few things must happen. Either:

1. Money gets raised somewhere else.
2. Government services get cut
3. The deficit goes spiraling further out of control.

1. IF the money is raised from somewhere else, perhaps he is one of the people from whom money is raised from. If he's making $100,000 and lives in NY or CA or HI, and has high state income tax, that tax can no longer be written off his federal taxes and thus he is experiencing a tax hike, as many are. This was particularly a blue-state phenomena whereby the scheme targeted taking away write offs depended upon mostly by blue state people - they will not see a tax cut, they'll see a tax raise, as is happening to many middle class people. www.businessinsider.com...

2. My wife's cousin is fully disabled, has been since an infant. She has severe Down Syndrome and has severe physical handicaps on top of it. She is an adult that lives at home with her parents through money that comes in through SSI/Medicaid. Because less money is coming in, Paul Ryan has already told us that Medicare/Medicaid will be next on the chopping block, deep cuts coming. Congress still has yet to fund the Childrens' Health Insurance Plan. Perhaps you prefer to live in a country where these people who can't afford it die off in the street. I do not.

We could cut back our military but Republicans seem to think that having the biggest gun is more important than taking care of my wife's cousin who can't care for herself, so I doubt that cuts will be coming from the military. Cuts could come from the NSF and possible cures for diseases will be pushed into the future, perhaps cuts will come to the EPA and other regulatory bodies and asthma rates will go up with more particulates in the air, perhaps lead will show up in your water, or your stock portfolio will disappear in a poof because of poor policing of Wall Street. Maybe there will just be less law enforcement generally and you or he will be killed by a prisoner furloughed early because of lack of funds. Or he'll just be killed when his car hits a pot hole on a road long scheduled to be repaired but put off due to lack of funds.

3. The deficit continues to skyrocket, our debt bought up primarily by China, which increasingly thus controls our country. As the deficit skyrockets, interest rates go up and perhaps he can't buy a home, or the non-fixed mortgage he has rises, thus spending money chasing interest.


Tax cuts to corporations aren't bad per se, not at all. There should be a responsible rate. A case could well be made that the U.S. rate itself was too high, but the rate meant nothing since it stood at 35 and corporations paid an effective rate of 22%

The tax cut wasn't bad because it cut taxes, it was bad because it cut taxes of people and companies that largely didn't need a tax cut, the wealthy and American business, already posting record profits and all-time market highs under the Obama era rates/policies.

Trump's campaign was supposedly to help the little guy, the guy who's factory got shut down. The tax cut did next to nothing for that guy. Trump could have gone after the infrastructure bill first, and put into the law a minimum wage paid to the workers that would do the actual work. We would have spent hundreds of billions, but got good wages, good roads, airports, and grids through it. Instead, we "spent" that money by giving it back to the wealthiest people and entities in the country.

It will not "trickle down" because it never has and never will - see Kansas over the last 8 years. Trickle Up, however, does work, because the money invested below pays for food, medicine, gets things built, and ends up in the rich hands in due course.

Anyway, there's your answer.
2.

a reply to: Scrubdog

lol...still not a single one of you can tell me exactly how cutting corporate taxes is going to personally affect you in a negative way. Your ungodly lengthy response is immediately negated as soon as you insert the word "if". You do not understand what a corporate tax rate decrease actually means because you are not a business owner. Many of you liberals will mouth off about pass through, S corp, etc. or whatever you can Google quickly to pretend you understand what you are talking about but whenever someone asks a very simple question it is hilarious at the lengthy side stepping you all do to avoid answering the simple question. Evidence that you don't have a clue but will instead oppose it because it is something Trump pushed for.

Drown in your hate. It's pathetic.

a reply to: Outlier13

Well, they still think the deficit matters. They’ll catch on. If for no other reason, I’m glad the republicans did this expensive law. They have proved it was a lie all these years worrying over the deficit.
Now we can spend money, get higher wages, fix Obamacare, good times for all

a reply to: Outlier13

I've owned 3 businesses and hold stock in 9 companies.

Merry Christmas to you, too.

I laid out exactly how it impacts a person and you said "nuh-uh." And that's about it. The use of "if" is perfect because there are hundreds of ways it can impact a person negatively.

I don't hate the tax cut because Trump pushed for it. I hate the particulars of the bill. In your mind, it simply MUST be because of Trump hatred, huh?

Well, I do hate Trump, too, won't deny that. But anyone with any principles would. Still, I'd have gotten behind an infrastructure bill had he proposed it, easy. And, I'd have supported a corporate tax cut in a different form, yessiree.

Your response is moronic. Have a nice day!

a reply to: MOMof3

I hope we do all those things. The deficit does matter with respect to its impact on the cost of borrowing money and the cost of service of the debt, additionally we allow other countries to buy our debt which is a way to hand over a ton of your own country's freedom to another.

I'm one of the few that worries about the debt no matter who is president. The Republicans only worry about debt when a Democrat is president, as demonstrated by the latest tax scheme. (It's not a cut since many will have their taxes go up.)

a reply to: Scrubdog


SD, 80% of the people in this country will pay less taxes. Corporations will also pay lower taxes, which has lead the EU to complain about "unfair economic incentives."

Unfair economic incentives is exactly what we're going for here. A stronger and more robust economy means more jobs and higher sales volume.

Buy American, Hire American

The USA is open for business

www.whitehouse.gov...

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Scrubdog


SD, 80% of the people in this country will pay less taxes. Corporations will also pay lower taxes, which has lead the EU to complain about "unfair economic incentives."

Unfair economic incentives is exactly what we're going for here. A stronger and more robust economy means more jobs and higher sales volume.

Buy American, Hire American

The USA is open for business

www.whitehouse.gov...

THIS>>>

Fred..

Trump is so Evil, he is going to force governments worldwide to lower taxes.....

U.S. Tax Bill May Inspire Cuts Globally, While Fueling Trade Tensions


Those Trump Slappies at the NYT are too much.

How dare he do that!

originally posted by: pavil
Trump is so Evil, he is going to force governments worldwide to lower taxes.....

U.S. Tax Bill May Inspire Cuts Globally, While Fueling Trade Tensions

How dare he do that!

Countries all over the world having been cutting corporate tax rate for years. Britain for example had 24% corporate tax rate in 2012 and now has 19% corporate tax rate. For the US to be competitive, a 15% corporate tax rate is a must 10 years down the road.

originally posted by: zukitar

originally posted by: pavil
Trump is so Evil, he is going to force governments worldwide to lower taxes.....

U.S. Tax Bill May Inspire Cuts Globally, While Fueling Trade Tensions

How dare he do that!

Countries all over the world having been cutting corporate tax rate for years. Britain for example had 24% corporate tax rate in 2012 and now has 19% corporate tax rate. For the US to be competitive, a 15% corporate tax rate is a must 10 years down the road.

...but when the US does it, it's "unfair".

LOL

a reply to: JBurns

100% agree that incentives is what we're after, and jobs and a robust economy.

I just think there was a far more efficient way of doing it, that would have had much deeper impact, helping far more people, been far better for business and been more lasting, that's all.

The corporate rate needed to be lowered, I don't disagree with that. Nor do I disagree that incentives in the world market are the ultimate goal.

Strange as it may seem, it is not the end goal upon which we disagree, far from it. It's just the mechanism used by Trump and the Republicans is an extremely weak tool in increasing that global competitiveness, and ungodly expensive.

Not only that, we're not just after "more jobs," so much as after "better jobs" and I would have given even higher tax credits/reductions to companies that up'd their wage structure so as to pay their lower level employees higher. Each dollar increase spent by Walmart in paying its employees better is one less dollar that need be spent buying food for that employee bc even working full time doesn't get many a Walmart worker even close to the poverty line.

Done that way, more money is in the hands of people that work for it, the company is rewarded for doing the right thing and getting people off government benefits, and the government subsidizes Walmart's payroll less.

There were many smarter alternatives to increasing our competitiveness on the global stage, but that wasn't the point. The point was to give a bunch of money to Repub donors. And so they did.

a reply to: Scrubdog

Oh so now you don't hate the tax cut? Which is it? If you want to do a drive by and add commentary on a topic and then you get called out on it to validate your statement you don't get to walk away without explaining your baseless opinion.

So now you waffle back to liking the tax cut? Spoken like a true indecisive liberal.

Oh, and no way you've owned 3 businesses. You're a liar and you know you are a liar. I know you are.

P.S. Still waiting for one of you hard core "business type" liberals to explain to me exactly how a corporate rate tax cut is going to personally hurt you.

P.P.S You own stock in 9 whole companies? Wow! You're like the Wolf of Wall Street. lol !

a reply to: Outlier13

There was no "one" tax cut, there was an entire new scheme of taxation, or is this news to you? There was a cut to corporate taxes, there was a cut to the top marginal rates (and lower rates), there was the elimination of the estate tax.

I'm not a business savant and never claimed to be, nor did I intend to impress you with the owning stock in 9 companies, it just happens to be true, and - yes, 3 businesses over the years, 2 of them law firms, one a joint LLC with a brother.

I thought we were specifically addressing the corporate tax cut? The one down from 35%? As I said, yes, I thought the corporate tax rate needed to be cut to be more competitive. But, combine that cut with the others, ones geared almost solely to the wealthy and I think you have an extremely weak, but extremely expensive stimulus.

Anyway, I answered questions in very good faith, you complained about how long it is, and now just want to insult me. So, good-bye.

a reply to: Scrubdog

Unfortunately then SD, you don't sound like most Democrats, certainly not anything we were hearing from Congress from the opposition. I'm sure a more bipartisan tax plan we can have, the best it is for America. I would suggest, that for "big deals" like taxes, healthcare, immigration, we pressure both sides to work with each other better. It's in ALL our interests.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: Scrubdog

Unfortunately then SD, you don't sound like most Democrats, certainly not anything we were hearing from Congress from the opposition. I'm sure a more bipartisan tax plan we can have, the best it is for America. I would suggest, that for "big deals" like taxes, healthcare, immigration, we pressure both sides to work with each other better. It's in ALL our interests.

Actually, I blog a lot on Daily Kos, about the most liberal (and intellectually sound) Dem site out there and I think you'd find that a majority of democratic voters are like me, looking for pragmatic solutions to problems while respecting each person's perspective. The left knew/knows that - though American companies are posting record profits, unemployment is almost at maximum employment and the stock market is at record highs (all of which was true when Obama left office and continues to be true today), many were left out of the "recovery" and something needed to be done - we knew that. Corporate taxes could've been a gateway into some real solutions for that next stuff needing to be done.

Our corporate tax rate itself was too high and we knew it. But, given the complexity of what can be written off, everyone knows that the exact rate was near meaningless.

I'd have lowered the rate and made further write offs dependent upon things that specifically decrease public spending. Do you pay your employees enough such that a full time worker - all of them - make above the poverty line? Then a big tax credit for you. Do you offer medical benefits to your employees? Keep going down. Does the effluent of the water you put back into the system exceed the CWA limits? Down down. Offer maternity leave? And on it goes. Anything a company does that decreases the amount of money spent out of the treasury should be returned to that company, encouraged to do more.


The problem is, for all too many, the public good isn't the end goal. The end goal is to help the people that make gigantic corporate campaign contributions, and that's a very small class of people, it's also the class of people with the most money to give away. When that's your core constituency, it shouldn't surprise that the benefits accrue largely to that subset of people.

Trump got some very bad advice. He could have put Democratic politicians in a vice. Many Dem voters vowed that their politicians had to give the "McConnel treatment" to Trump - never compromise on anything, ever, as McConnell did with Obama. Trump should've tested their resolve and broken it by proposing an infrastructure bill, first thing. It was needed, both sides could horse trade and get "something" for their voters, it would've helped us maintain competitivness with the world and it would've stimulated the economy. He never pushed for it, Congress never wrote one, and instead we paid far more for this measely stimulus that we'll get in this tax bill, which will also add tremendously to the deficit.

I don't know who was advising him. I won't go there. But it was a golden opportunity to split the Dems between the ideologues versus those of us who just want to see people's lives improve and don't care who gets credit. He would've also gotten an idea which Republicans would be there for him when needed, and which wouldn't have.

Oh well.

Thank you for the nice reply. I do like to think that we're all Americans. If I saw your car ahead of me slide off the road, I'd stop. I suspect you would, too. We ought to treat each other like that when conversing, IMO.

a reply to: Scrubdog

Me insult you? Pot meet kettle. Go back and count your childish insults to me. Hypocrite much? You liberals are so thinned skinned its laughable. You're just upset because I called you a liar. I still hold to my assertion, too. Being part of a 2 man team is not a "business" in the capacity where you employ a workforce dependent upon your decisions as a business owner. It's real simple math. If a business pays less money to the federal government then said company has more money in their bank account.

This is the point where all the hyperventilating liberals think the ones at the top of the company food chain are all sitting in a board room smoking cigars and laughing over the pile of cash sitting on the table because the feds gave US businesses a corporate tax break. You liberals love to drink the MSM kool-aid when it comes to believing their BS.

I most definitely realize you are not a business savant as evidenced by your inability to answer my very simple question. In reality most businesses in the US are small businesses where any tax relief in any fashion is used for business modernization, additional new hires, pay bonuses, increased salaries, improved health care plans, improving cash flow, or yes...believe it or not...setting aside that money in an account to see the company through lean times so they can avoid the knee jerk reaction of firing people to cut payroll costs.

So yes I still hold to my original assertion that you have not been a legitimate business owner in the capacity as one who provides jobs for a workforce and who would ultimately understand the benefit of corporate tax relief and how that translates directly to tangible and non-tangible improvements within a company.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: Scrubdog

Unfortunately then SD, you don't sound like most Democrats, certainly not anything we were hearing from Congress from the opposition. I'm sure a more bipartisan tax plan we can have, the best it is for America. I would suggest, that for "big deals" like taxes, healthcare, immigration, we pressure both sides to work with each other better. It's in ALL our interests.

Agreed with the second part, but disagree with the first part. SD sounds like a lot of us Democrats (I am involved with local Democrat groups and what SD has been saying is similar to what friends (liberal Democrats), groups I belong to, and my state Democratic politicians are saying.

I have seen here on ATS a lot of talk about what we liberals (and Democrats) believe... but the people delivering the message are seldom liberals or Democrats and don't seem to be listening to the same sources I do (though there are a few nutbar liberal and Democratic sources that do hold some of the absurdly extreme positions.)

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
I keep seeing this and I am starting to find it both frustrating and hugely entertaining. In politics, it is inevitable that everyone is going to basically make stuff up, the right do it, the left do it, those who occupy the middle ground do it, nobody is above this, everyone lies a little bit. However, I think what we are seeing with Trump supporters is reaching a new level, it’s like they have created their own propaganda and are the only ones who ironically believe it.

The right, the Trump supporters have coined this new medical condition known as “Trump Derangement Syndrome” to describe the mental state of anyone who does not worship the ground their orange god walks on. I have honestly read some people online who seem to belief that this is a genuine mental health condition. There are other misconceptions that the right like to push that are just untrue, they have created this silly idea that those who oppose Trump think “you”; the Trump supporter must be racist because you’re a straight white male who supports Trump. Again, utter nonsense, it’s just a mechanism for them attempting to occupy the moral high-ground, “look at those leftists trying to call us all racists”. The only problem with that is that it’s simply not true and the only ones who seem to believe it are the Trump supporters. They do the same with Clinton, they seem to have bought into this fallacy that anti-Trump equals pro-Hillary. Again, that is just right-wing propaganda that only the right believes.

Now speaking of Hillary, this is again another area where the right belief their own propaganda, don’t get me wrong I don’t like Clinton. With that said however, I have recently read some nonsense that the Clintons had killed over 150 aids and where running around abusing kids and raping everyone they could. Honestly if your belief all of the crap that the right has pumped out about Clinton then she is the anti-Christ. There are plenty of reasons to hate Hillary Clinton without having to make up all this kind of crap, if anything it only undermines your position on her when you start to believe the lies that your side made up to turn people against her.

This can be seen time and time again, Trump supporters believe their own propaganda, they seem to be the only ones who belief the BS that they are shovelling. I keep reading them harp on about how must the economy has been boosted under Trump and unemployment is down. Yet they never seem to address the fact that this has happened on the back of the Obama administration and in an economy, that is still working under largely Obama era economic policies. It is a lie to claim that it has been Trump who is responsible for this boost in the economy, again however it’s a lie that only the Trump supporters seem to belief.

Speaking of Obama, I still see lots of Trump supporters who belief this myth that they created that Obama is not American.

This goes on, and on, it can be seen in just about every thread, the right seems to believe their own propaganda. Nobody else does, the rest of us see it for what it is; lies and propaganda. Like I said this can be massively entertaining, yet it can also be really frustrating. They seem to be believing their own propaganda because it validates their political views, even if it is built on lies.

I live in the United States an we were attacked by Russia, including North Korea some years ago (well, it still is happening). Are you a RUSSIAN TROLL (the ones on ABC News?). If you do not live in the US, then shut up You are damning us to hell if you do not support Trump on fighting Russia. Russia is laughing at us. I do not want to be controlled by some #ed up person like Putin. So suck you own.