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BAE Systems MAGMA Project

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posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 01:36 PM
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Came across a few articles today regarding the BAE MAGMA project which are making a few headlines.

www.baesystems.com...

I’ve been a quiet and keen observer of this sub forum for sometime and not come across anything similar. So thought I’d post it.

Seem to have a few interesting ideas in terms of reducing moving parts with potential benefits to stealth and aerodynamics. The theory behind the concept is pretty interesting so would be good to see it developed.

Is anyone aware of any similar projects currently around.

Apologies if a similar thread exists, did a quick search but nothing popped up.

Bob




posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 02:01 PM
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a reply to: DrBobH

Wow, good article and an interesting proposition.

I'm not sure I understand how blowing air "through the trailing edge of the wing" allows for manoeuvring the aircraft. Is that system responsive enough to improve the aircrafts agility in order to take advantage of the possible weight decrease?

Sorry if this is a stupid question. I am enthusiastic when it comes to aircraft but have almost zero actual knowledge on the subject..

edit on 13-12-2017 by Indrasweb because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 02:11 PM
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I assume the movement of the air will change the amount of lift generated which will raise or lower the wing resulting in a change of direction of the aircraft...BAE where looking into this years ago and built a small prototype with a uk collage...



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 02:14 PM
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Found it..it’s the BAE Systems “Demon” uav which is part of the “Flaviir” project.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 02:17 PM
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a reply to: Indrasweb

The system is doing two things. Its literally changing the direction of the exhaust stream coming out the engine nozzle. This allows for steering. Its kinda like if turn on a hose of water and stick your thumb on the edge of the nozzle and the water squirts more to the left. In this case air is acting like the thumb. If the exhaust is being pushed to the left the vector (line) of thrust is pushing more to the right which would in turn steer the aircraft more to the left. So it functions like a rudder. This part of the BAE system is called Fluedic Thrust Vectoring. Because you are using a fluid (air) to push the exhaust into a direction and via that vector the thrust. In other words the injected slower moving air on one side of the exhaust nozzle creates resistance to the exhaust which will flow away from it and in a desired direction for steering.

The second part about the air on the wings is basically causing turbulance and drag by un even air flow to disrupt lift or increase it over certain parts of the wing allowing banking the same way a flap or aileron on a aircrafts wing does.

Keep in mind a wing works by creating a difference in air pressure between the bottom and top of the wing. Air pressure is caused by the speed the air flows. Faster moving air has less air pressure. Slower moving air has more. The wing is flat on bottom and curved on top. The wing is travelling through the air at a certain rate of speed. The air travelling along the bottom where its flat goes a shorter distance than the air having to take the curved path over the top which is a longer distance. The only way for the air to get over the top and make its way to the back at the same time as the air on the bottom is to speed up thus lowering its air pressure compared to the air on the bottom. This creates a force pushing up on the underside of the wing. A good example of this phenomena of air speed causing pressure differences is with your window. Close a window when its windy outside. Cause the air outside is travellung faster than the air inside the house the still air inside has more pressure and it pushes out on the window. So when a gust of wind blows past outside your window forcefully ushes out due to the sudden higher pressure inside and you hear that familiar "thump!!" as the window bangs against its frame.

So with this BAE system:
Basically you have a smooth airflow going over the top or bottom of the wing. This system injects slower or faster moving air over a part of the bottom of the wing disrupting the air pressure there by causing turbulance and that will cause that wing to loose a little bit of lift and drop down making the plane bank in that direction.

Or it can do the opposite by injecting the air over the top of the wing and change the air pressure there and cause more lift on that wing causing it to rise up making the plane bank the other way.


edit on 13-12-2017 by BASSPLYR because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 02:24 PM
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a reply to: BASSPLYR

Wow, awesome explanation, thank you!
And just dumbed-down enough to make sense to me



So, do you think that such a system could be responsive enough to give the aircraft sufficient agility to take advantage of the potential benefits of weight reduction?



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:09 PM
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a reply to: BASSPLYR





The second part about the air on the wings is basically causing turbulance and drag by un even air flow to disrupt lift or increase it over certain parts of the wing allowing banking the same way a flap or aileron on a aircrafts wing does.

Basically you have a smooth airflow going over the top or bottom of the wing. This system injects slower or faster moving air over a part of the bottom of the wing disrupting the air pressure there by causing turbulance and that will cause that wing to loose a little bit of lift and drop down making the plane bank in that direction. 


Ermm, sort of.
CCW is alot like a fancy blown flap. By using a different/rounded trailing edge, you can introduce the air atop the trailing edge to increase lift via coanda effect. There isn't going to be any spoiling. Depending on the implementation, you might see a decrease in boundary level drag.
I don't think this is going to work. I mean by that it definitely can work, but it isn't going to become common for the same reasons noone loves blown flaps. Its a giant pain in the ass. That makes the claims about lighter and easier to maintain something of a joke if you know what support blown flaps require. This is similar, only instead of simply turning them on and off to augment your flaps, this needs to be always on and adjusted extremely quickly (perhaps on a scale of x per second in an RSS design) as a flight control. Also when you lose power to your engine, you simultaneously lose flight control. Bad news.
There are other ways of modifying airflow, including inducing drag as you state above, which are far more practicable for flight control.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:09 PM
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a reply to: BASSPLYR

Thanks for the explanation it’s certainly an interesting concept and one I’ve not come across before.

In terms of using this type of tech to steer are there any potential advantages in terms of manoeuvrability vs a more standard system?

Bob



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: RadioRobert

Ahh... and this is a good example of "not nearly dumbed down enough for me"





posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:24 PM
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a reply to: Indrasweb

Use bleed off air to blow real hard over the trailing edge. The air adheres to the curved edge (goes down). Air above that adheres to boundary layer in degrees. Sum total of air moving down= increased lift (3rd law). Vary blown air/lift to use as flight control. Less drag than conventional flight controls.
edit on 13-12-2017 by RadioRobert because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:26 PM
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edit on 13 12 2017 by kaelci because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:27 PM
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a reply to: RadioRobert

Thanks, still not quite 😂

I think I understand.. it doesn't sound like a super efficient way of manoeuvring an aircraft though. Or at least, not especially responsive anyway. Perhaps I'm underestimating the immediacy and magnitude of the effect you're describing...



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:28 PM
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Oops posted from my girlfriends account on accident while using her laptop.

You are correct though. I was trying to simplify things because i didnt want to go into explaining the whole coanda effect.



edit on 13-12-2017 by BASSPLYR because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: kaelci



i was trying to simplify things cause i didn't want to go into the coanda effect and have to explain all that.



Okay, but fundamentally, the system injects air above the wing, not below it. It may decrease drag but should not by design increase it by introducing turbulence or spoiling lift which youn stated. Just trying to clear it up.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:34 PM
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a reply to: Indrasweb

The air force has used plasma actuators to achieve the same thing. The electrical discharge spoils the air over the wings and functions the same way.

They are interested in systems like this because the shape of a stealth aircraft is critical to stealth. If it drops or moves a flap the stealthy shape of the aircraft is suddenly changed ruining its stealthy profile and it gets lit up by radar. So they are developing ways to do what flaps do without having to physically change the shape of the aircraft and ruining its stealth abilities.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:35 PM
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a reply to: RadioRobert

Yeah guilty of oversimplifying and explaining systems like this in general and the basic concepts
edit on 13-12-2017 by BASSPLYR because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-12-2017 by BASSPLYR because: Man i still cant spell to save my life



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: Indrasweb

It's a system that will be more useful for a larger aircraft than for fighters. It'll work for both, but a larger aircraft will see more advantage.

Another way to do this is the flexible wing. With that, you change the shape of the wing to do the same thing. It's got the same advantages of less weight and fewer parts to increase RCS.
edit on 12/13/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: DrBobH

Impressive stuff!

Maybe one day we will figure out how to use the exhaust gasses to re-create a wings leading edge as well...perhaps leaving us with flying cigar shaped objects.

Also great to see British innovation.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: BASSPLYR

Thanks to both Bassplyr and Zaph!

Great explanations guys.

That makes a lot of sense re: changing the shape, and that effecting the stealth capabilities.

And yeah, I can see that being more beneficial to larger aircraft..

Wish I knew a bit more about this subject

edit on 13-12-2017 by Indrasweb because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:51 PM
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a reply to: Indrasweb

Some interesting reading.

Aerolastic wings

VCCTEF




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