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Alabama Shows Exactly How Voter ID Laws Can Be Used for Voter Suppression

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posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 02:39 PM
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originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: ketsuko

Well, if it were up to roy moore, the people wouldn't be voting to send him to the senate, the state legislature would.


Frankly, I think we need to go back to that practice too.

It might help with the legislation coming out of Washington that foists off massive unfunded liabilities onto the states. When the state legislatures picked the Senators, it was with the idea that they were representing the interests of the state itself as a governing body and not the people of the state which was what the Representatives in the House were for and why they were elected directly.

Of course, finding a way to get rid of political parties would help even more.
edit on 12-12-2017 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 02:40 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler
Well the article says 31 drivers license centers will be closing. So white areas will be affected to.


Additionally, here is another bit of information:



The 31 satellite locations handle less than 5 percent of driver license transactions, according to ALEA.


Link

I have in the past been accused of being a 'libtard' and I think that voter identification laws are a no brainer. Not because I believe that voter fraud is widespread but because it just makes sense.

Can it be used as a means to suppress the vote? Sure, but doing so would be extremely risky and would more than likely be easily discovered. I have heard the arguments against voter id's but I have yet to be convinced.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 02:40 PM
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I don't always pay close attention as to WHO posts WHAT on ATS...

but the lack of homework done by the OP and supporting cast; the lack of common sense from said people; the lack of questions being asked from said people and in its place absolute blame being thrown at the right/Moore with heavy undertones of racism

How disingenuous!
How lazy!
How irresponsible!

And the left won't bat an eye...

But as I said in the opening of this post... I don't always pay close attention as to WHO... well, that has changed because those individuals have lost all credibility... not that I lent any to you in the first place but geeez!! Talk about cherry-picking to manufacture an outcome that fits your delusional progressive narrative!



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 02:41 PM
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originally posted by: theantediluvianHow about we rely on rese arch

So, the correlation MUST BE because it's harder for minorities to get an ID. It couldn't include, for instance, that minorities may have a more apathetic view when it comes to voting, and anything seen as a roadblock, like the common-sense step of getting/having a valid ID, makes them less likely to vote?

As is noted many times when studies and statistics are cited, you must remember that correlation does not always equal causation, and ANY person could use what is shown in that study as a way to argue ANY point surrounding minorities and IDs.


UCSD researchers: Voter ID laws suppress Dems, minorities

We'll let your own link speak for itself on this study:

It has yet to withstand peer review or be chosen for publication in an academic journal ...

as well as:

Richard Hasen, professor of law and political science at UC Irvine School of Law, cautioned against drawing conclusions from the paper, which is an outlier.

“Social science is not this kind of thing where you have one study and it’s a smoking gun and that’s it,” Hasen said. “It’s a situation where you have a ton of studies and they all point in a particular direction.”

Hasen said many confounding factors and changing rules affect voter turnout.

Yes, so, sorry, this isn't evidence of much, other than a study by a liberal professor who wrote "White Backlash: Immigration, Race, and American Politics" a year before completing the study.

Again, even if it's all accurate, he still can't prove the "why" behind the lower turnout, but considering that, at the start of the study, there was a general election for our nation's first black president, then one to keep him for another term, and then one where no Democratic candidate really inspired people to vote, I think that there may be more to just the ID laws that kept minorities from the polls.

Call me nuts.



Wisconsin’s Voter-ID Law Suppressed 200,000 Votes in 2016

No need to say much, because it falls under the same category of correlation does not equal causation. Maybe instead of this reduction hurting Hillary's campaign, maybe the fact that Hillary was the candidate hurt voter turnout...an equally plausible possibility, amongst many, many others.

So, basically what you're saying in this thread is:
    1. Minorities are too incapable of getting IDs if it becomes a possible inconvenience (and you can renew licenses and IDs in Alabama through the mail AND online, so the temporary closing of licensing offices would only affect new drivers or people who just moved to the state, both of whom must be there in person), and

    2. Since there is a difference in voter turnout for the negative amongst minority and Democrat voters, it can ONLY be because of ID laws (which, again, are not that big of a deal...at all).

So, why do you think these things with such certainty? I mean, if a white dude is capable of getting an ID in time to vote, so can a black dude, or Mexican or Asian dude, or any other person.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 02:41 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Agreed



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 02:53 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Gargamel

Yeah, its ridiculous.

Notice how on this thread it shows a map of where the offices closed.

www.al.com...

Now here is a map of the percentage of counties with more than 50% black, and those with less than 10% black.

cber.cba.ua.edu...

Notice how many counties with a very small percentage of blacks had their offices closed.

So we can assume that the closure of the office in say Lauderdal county with an overwhelming white population, or Franklin county that was the same, was to be racist against white voters.

And this doesnt even take into account that free id's to vote could have been obtained at registars offices that stayed open in every county, and that you could call and have an ID delivered directly to your house.



Great work Grambler. I also find it funny that individual rights are mentioned while espousing perceived social justice issues. The two cannot go hand in hand as social justice is another term for group think.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 02:56 PM
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originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

If two people are equally impacted, one being White, one being a minority, both being equally poor and disadvantaged, is it still racist against the minority? Is not equal treatment the goal? If not, why not?

An argument about a law that applies to everyone equally being racist, seems to indicate the real goal is unequal treatment under the law. Would that not make the goal special treatment for one over the other? Definitive discrimination?


If it screws over everyone equally, then that is equal opportunity.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 02:58 PM
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edit on 12-12-2017 by loam because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:03 PM
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originally posted by: pavil

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: pavil

Voter turnout isn't how it gets measured.

You measure adverse impact. If a government move creates an adverse impact on a protected class, then the move is a violation of civil rights. It doesn't matter if the white half of a county goes and votes.

If you are going to put licensing as a hurdle for voting, you cannot restrict licensing. It seems that someone agreed with me, as the courts made the offices reopen. It doesn't matter if you think it is "right" or not. Its the truth, and that is all that I am discussing here. The philosophy of race is for another discussion.


So you can't actually show it's lowered Black voting in this areas I take it? That's the whole basis of your sides claim here?


I don't have a side here. Im just stating what i understand the law to be. The DOT agreed with me because I have a good understanding of how the laws work.



So you wouldn't have an issue if the Secretary of State offices weren't shut down and they could very easily get proper ID?


If the SOS offices were the hurdle to exercising the basic human right of voting, then yes. I would. As would the Federal Government, who created the standard im reciting.



The offices reopened by court order and still it's a problem ? Not following this train of thought.


Good, because Im not driving that particular train. Im pointing out that the government of AL seems to have tried to suppress voters, and the DOT intervened because they agreed.



If you are going to claim they are poor, to get most government benefits, part of the process is providing a valid Govt ID showing your place of residence.


That seems to be the argument now....that only the blacks in those counties, not whites are now disenfranchised because of the lack of close by offices to get proper ID.?


You should read the laws. If you don't understand what i am saying, the EEOC website might have some materials that will help.



How would you propose we verify voters? We have had to produce ID here in Michigan to vote and no one thinks it's a problem, black ,white or brown.

Why is not a problem in Michigan yet it's a problem elsewhere?


Did MI decide to close the outlets that provide those ID's to a protected class of citizen? If they did, then they, too, have violated civil rights.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:16 PM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

If two people are equally impacted, one being White, one being a minority, both being equally poor and disadvantaged, is it still racist against the minority? Is not equal treatment the goal? If not, why not?

An argument about a law that applies to everyone equally being racist, seems to indicate the real goal is unequal treatment under the law. Would that not make the goal special treatment for one over the other? Definitive discrimination?




If it screws over everyone equally, then that is equal opportunity.



The Texas two-step.

Seriously though, one of the most absurd partisan talking points out there now is that requiring ID to vote is wrong and racist. Ranks right up there with all Liberals are Commie's.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:24 PM
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originally posted by: Blaine91555

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

If two people are equally impacted, one being White, one being a minority, both being equally poor and disadvantaged, is it still racist against the minority? Is not equal treatment the goal? If not, why not?

An argument about a law that applies to everyone equally being racist, seems to indicate the real goal is unequal treatment under the law. Would that not make the goal special treatment for one over the other? Definitive discrimination?




If it screws over everyone equally, then that is equal opportunity.



The Texas two-step.

Seriously though, one of the most absurd partisan talking points out there now is that requiring ID to vote is wrong and racist. Ranks right up there with all Liberals are Commie's.


If it was racially discriminatory to ask for a photo ID, then businesses would be prohibited from asking for a photo ID before selling goods and services to customers, and employers would be prohibited from asking for a photo ID before hiring employees.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:26 PM
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originally posted by: shooterbrody
So it is not so much that you lie straight out....


I'm not so sure.

But here are some real facts.

The current list of DMV license locations: Alabama Driver License Offices



Here are the affected counties in the 2015 article:



There are 67 counties in Alabama. The eight affected counties are the LEAST populated counties in the state.

50. Macon County - 18,963
54. Hale County - 14,952
59. Sumter County - 13,040
62. Wilcox County - 10,986
64. Bullock County - 10,362
65. Lowndes County - 10,358
66. Perry County - 9,574
67. Greene County - 8,422

Alabama's total population is 4,779,736 people. The TOTAL population of those eight counties is 96,657 or essentially 2% of the entire state population. When one considers the actual black vs. white counts and population above 18 years of age, the number of blacks 'inconvenienced' by this (we can ignore the inconveniences perpetrated against the white residents of those counties) is obviosly significantly less than 1%.

Moreover, using the DMV office locations in the link above, it is clear that many of those counties never actually closed, but reduced hours. Something that is also true in many other counties throughout the state.

No single 'affected' county appears to be more than an hour's drive from an open location.

The entire premise of this thread is BS disinformation.




posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:36 PM
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a reply to: loam

Plus, there's the FREE photo voter ID program that has issuing offices in all TEN of the counties mentioned in the OP.

LINK



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Michigan closes down and consolidates SOS offices all the time. I'm sure the city of Detroit, which has a majority percentage of African Americans, has seen it's number of offices shrink as the overall population of Detroit has declined from 1M in the 1960's to the 450,000 or so it has today. Has Michigan disenfranchised the residents of Detroit by closing secretary of state offices?



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:50 PM
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a reply to: Grambler


Notice how many counties with a very small percentage of blacks had their offices closed.


Looks like 8 out of 10 counties with a black population greater than 50% had their DMVs closed as opposed to 5 out of 13 where the black population is less than 10%.

That's what? Like 80% vs 38%? Basically the same thing... ?


And this doesnt even take into account that free id's to vote could have been obtained at registars offices that stayed open in every county, and that you could call and have an ID delivered directly to your house.


Are you arguing that most people will not be using a driver's license for ID? Now let's pretend that you're going to vote in three weeks. You're license expired/you lost it/whatever, you can go to the DMV and get a new one. Or you could request a mobile ID (that's what you're referring to with the "delivered directly to your house") unit come to your house. Which are you more likely to do?

Oh wait, you can't do that because you have to contact them at least two weeks in advance and sorry, schedule is filled. But wait, are you a currently registered voter in AL? If not, you can't even get a free voter ID in the first place. Because it would make too much sense to allow the people issuing that ID to also register you to vote. But wait, you can register to vote online... oh sorry, can't do that if you don't have a valid driver's license or state ID.

But guess where you can register to vote? Why of course, the DMV!

So excepting specific circumstances (like you're a registered voter with all the required ID documents except a valid photo ID and have enough lead time — good for invalids no doubt), aside from the DMV, you're left with the registrars offices.

It's pretty damn tedious just talking about it. Meanwhile, other people are just heading off to the DMV. If nothing else, you at least have to admit that they cut access to the most practical means for complying with the law by half and that this measure disproportionately affected predominately black counties.

Voter suppression doesn't have to completely disenfranchise a group. It doesn't even have to impact a majority of the members of the group. Nor does it have to be an absolute denial. It really only needs to be enough of inconvenience with disproportionate impact to discourage or otherwise keep a small percentage of the target group from voting.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:55 PM
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originally posted by: loam

originally posted by: shooterbrody
So it is not so much that you lie straight out....


I'm not so sure.

But here are some real facts.

The current list of DMV license locations: Alabama Driver License Offices



Here are the affected counties in the 2015 article:



There are 67 counties in Alabama. The eight affected counties are the LEAST populated counties in the state.

50. Macon County - 18,963
54. Hale County - 14,952
59. Sumter County - 13,040
62. Wilcox County - 10,986
64. Bullock County - 10,362
65. Lowndes County - 10,358
66. Perry County - 9,574
67. Greene County - 8,422

Alabama's total population is 4,779,736 people. The TOTAL population of those eight counties is 96,657 or essentially 2% of the entire state population. When one considers the actual black vs. white counts and population above 18 years of age, the number of blacks 'inconvenienced' by this (we can ignore the inconveniences perpetrated against the white residents of those counties) is obviosly significantly less than 1%.

Moreover, using the DMV office locations in the link above, it is clear that many of those counties never actually closed, but reduced hours. Something that is also true in many other counties throughout the state.

No single 'affected' county appears to be more than an hour's drive from an open location.

The entire premise of this thread is BS disinformation.




. Those offices closed seem to be relatively evenly spaced apart like they were trying to eliminate redundant offices State-wide, not going after a particular ethnic group. They reopened those offices in question, so the point is a non point even.

What now is preventing people from getting proper ID to vote?



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:58 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

Indeed.

Moreover, the entire underlying premise of the OP reveals a racist perspective all by itself...




posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 03:59 PM
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I'm just going to throw this grenade out here....

I'm not a fan of any law requiring an ID that has a fee attached to vote. (yes, there's free ones, but only if you meet the requirements).

Just issue free state ID's to everyone beginning at 18 yo. and be done with it. It's free, you have every opportunity in the world to get it. Everyone's is happy.

Or here's one. Let's force women to register for selective service as well. Make this your ID for voting.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 04:07 PM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

So you dont care about the 5 almost all white counties that were affected.

Screw whitey, right? Only the black people can be disenfranchised.

Or....

This wasn't a racial thing at all. It was done in counties with low populations.

Again, though, if this is your standard, then DMV distance is less of an affect of white vs. black, but rural vs. urban.

Rural people much have to go much further to get to any government office, including the DMV. And guess what, rural people are overwhelmingly white.

So by your standards, the voting system is set up to disenfranchise white people.

Now in this thread particularly, you even acknowledge that the registrars office can give you an id. Why is that a problem again?

Im sorry, but I dont find your story here to be that persuasive.

Yes, if you left your id expire, waited until the week before the election, tehrfore cant get the mobile ID, so you for whatever reason dont feel like going to the registrars, and dont want to drive an extra 30 miles to get your ID renewed, sorry, tough luck.

That is not racism.

By the same token, if I let my license expire and I live in the middle of corn country in Nebraska and have to drive 60 miles to get my ID renewed, does that prove racism against white people?

This thread, like all claims that Voter ID is racist, is merely attempting to call opponents racism.

Meanwhile, it has the added effect of overlooking that white people are effected too, there are many other ways to get an id in close proximity, and this was from 2015 but you tried to tie it to tonights election,

and it makes it seem like you are infantilizing black people, claiming they cant accomplish simple tasks like getting an ID.



posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 04:08 PM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

so - 30 DMV facilities have been alledgedly " closed " [ follow ups show this is not entirely true - but hey
]

8 of them are in " black majority " counties - which means - 22 of them are in white majority counties

please explain coherently how this = racist ?




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