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Why the lack of Pagan threads?

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posted on Dec, 12 2017 @ 11:34 PM
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originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: testingtesting
As for making a pagan thread .... hey who knows, it might not devolve into "you are all going to hell"

Talking about the Pagan concept of a fiery hell...

The doctrine that hell is a place of torment is not based on the Bible. Rather, it is a pagan belief masquerading as a Christian teaching. ... No, God does not torture people eternally in hell. How can learning the truth about hell affect your attitude toward God?
...
A BRIEF HISTORY OF HELL

ROOTS IN PAGAN BELIEFS: The ancient Egyptians believed in a fiery hell. The Book Ȧm-Ṭuat, dated 1375 B.C.E., speaks of those who “shall be cast down headlong into the pits of fire; and . . . shall not escape therefrom, and . . . shall not be able to flee from the flames.” Greek philosopher Plutarch (c.46-120 C.E.) wrote of those in the world below: “[They] raised a cry of wailing as they underwent fearful torments and ignominious and excruciating chastisements.”

SECTS OF JUDAISM ARE INFECTED: The historian Josephus (37-c.100 C.E.) reported that the Essenes, a Jewish sect, believed that “the souls are immortal, and continue forever.” He added: “This is like the opinion of the Greeks . . . They allot to bad souls a dark and tempestuous den, full of never-ceasing punishments.” [see also Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal, another teaching that has its origin in Pagan teachings]

INTRODUCED INTO “CHRISTIANITY”: In the second century C.E., the apocryphal book Apocalypse of Peter said of the wicked: “There is spread out for them unquenchable fire.” It also stated: “Ezrael, the angel of wrath, brings men and women with the half of their bodies burning and casts them into a place of darkness, the hell of men; and a spirit of wrath chastises them.” During the same time period, writer Theophilus of Antioch quotes the Greek prophetess Sibyl as foretelling the punishments of the wicked: “Upon you burning fire shall come, and ever ye shall daily burn in flames.” These are among the words that Theophilus says are “true, and useful, and just, and profitable to all men.”

HELLFIRE USED TO JUSTIFY VIOLENCE IN THE MIDDLE AGES: Mary I, queen of England (1553-1558), known as “Bloody Mary” for burning nearly 300 Protestants at the stake, reportedly said: “As the souls of heretics are hereafter to be eternally burning in hell, there can be nothing more proper than for me to imitate the Divine vengeance by burning them on earth.”

A RECENT DEFINITION: In recent years, some denominations have revised their teaching about hell. For example, the Doctrine Commission of the Church of England said in 1995: “Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolutely that the only end is total non-being.”
...

Source: What Did Jesus Teach About Hell?

What the h*ll is HELL anyway? Are you going there?


Recasting God

Christ and his disciples taught that there is only “one God the Father,” distinguished by his personal name, Jehovah, which appears some 7,000 times in early Bible manuscripts. (1 Corinthians 8:6; Psalm 83:18) Jesus was created by God; he is “the firstborn of every creature,” says the Catholic Douay Version of the Bible at Colossians 1:15. Thus, as a created being, Jesus frankly stated: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

But by the third century, certain influential clerics, enamored of the trinitarian teaching of pagan Greek philosopher Plato, began recasting God to fit the Trinitarian formula. In the following centuries, this doctrine unscripturally elevated Jesus to equality with Jehovah and made God’s holy spirit, or active force, into a person.

Concerning the church’s adoption of the pagan concept of the Trinity, the New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”

Similarly, The Encyclopedia Americana says: “Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.” The Oxford Companion to the Bible calls the Trinity one of a number of “later creedal formulations.” Yet, the Trinity was not the only pagan concept assimilated into the church.

Refashioning the Soul

It is commonly believed today that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the body. But did you know that this church teaching was also a later addition? Jesus affirmed the Biblical truth that the dead “are conscious of nothing at all,” that they are asleep, as it were. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-13) Life would be restored by means of a resurrection—‘a standing up again’ from the sleep of death. (John 5:28, 29) An immortal soul, if it existed, would need no resurrection, since immortality precludes death.

...The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology says that the concept “owes more to Greek philosophy than to biblical revelation.” The Jewish Encyclopedia explains: “The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”

Often, one falsehood leads to another, and that is true of the immortal-soul teaching. It opened the way for the pagan notion of eternal torment in a fiery hell.* Yet, the Bible plainly states that “the wages sin pays is death”—not eternal torment. (Romans 6:23)
...
*: “Hell” is a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades, both of which simply mean “the grave.” Thus, while the English translators of the King James Version translated Sheol 31 times as “hell,” they also rendered it 31 times as “grave” and 3 times as “pit,” thereby showing that these terms mean basically the same thing.

Source: The Changing Face of “Christianity”—Acceptable to God?

“The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”— Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

As it can also be found in Wicca. Someone here might have noticed the Trequestra symbol on the magic book cover in the TV-series "Charmed". This has been used in Christendom as a symbol of the Trinity as well. Talking about icons and symbols:

Religious Icons—Their Ancient [Pagan] Roots




posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 01:28 AM
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a reply to: whereislogic

Do you actually know anything about modern pagan theology? Or the history of symbols? Just curious.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 02:34 AM
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There is a modern version of Paganism but early Paganism is just what Rome was calling the mystery religions.
For the most part you can learn what you need about Pagan beliefs just by learning Christian dogma.

Osirus, Adonis, Romulus, Zalmoxis and Innanna are all dying and rising gods.
Cult followers were baptized, each demigod underwent a "passion", they were all "sons" of god, "savior" gods, obtained a victory over death which is passed on to their followers, allowed their followers to be forgiven of personal sins, to avoid hell and they all pre-date Christianity. They were killed and resurrected in 3 days, had 12 apostles, etc..

All of these concepts started with Zorastrinaism, including ideas of heaven, hell and general afterlife. That actually wasn't in Jewish theology until the Persians interacted with Jews and introduced these modern Zorastrian ideas into their culture. As Zor. spread we see different religions all adapt and form a personal savior god ideology that incorporates elements of their own religions.
The Jewish version is of course Christianity.

For some reason Christians called other pagan religions polytheistic but in their own case they developed weird rules to avoid that claim. They obviously have God who has a son who is another lesser god as well as later on developing the trinity and then in later Catholicism we see saints. All "aspects" of one god but this isn't really any different than any other religion who has deities who are separate but also one with the main god.
edit on 13-12-2017 by joelr because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 03:08 AM
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Cry for help? why do liberals have to try and stir something up,is it their lack of self esteem,or the fact they are too lazy to experiance anything,better to whine,get a life



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 04:19 AM
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originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: whereislogic
...
Just curious.

Somehow I doubt that. Your questions seemed a bit rhetorical anyway. And I'm not that interesting.

Triquetra - Wikipedia

Christian use

The symbol has been used in Christian tradition as a sign of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), especially since the Celtic revival of the 19th century. ...
...
Modern use

In contemporary Ireland,...The triquetra... is often found as a design element in popular Irish jewelry...
...
Neopaganism

...Celtic pagans, or even neopagans who are not of a Celtic cultural orientation, may use the triquetra to symbolise a variety of concepts and mythological figures.

Due to its presence in insular Celtic art, Celtic Reconstructionists use the triquetra either to represent one of the various triplicities in their cosmology and theology (such as the tripartite division of the world into the realms of Land, Sea and Sky),[3] or as a symbol of one of the specific Celtic triple goddesses, for example the battle goddess, The Morrígan.

Germanic neopagan groups who use the triquetra to symbolise their faith generally believe it is originally of Norse and Germanic origins.

The symbol is also sometimes used by wiccans and some new agers to symbolise the Triple Goddess, or as a protective symbol.[4]


Consider what happened about the year 50 C.E. when the apostle Paul visited Athens, a city in which much emphasis was placed on the use of images in worship. Paul explained to the Athenians that God “does not dwell in handmade temples, neither is he attended to by human hands as if he needed anything . . . Therefore, . . . we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man.”—Acts 17:24, 25, 29.

Actually, such warnings regarding the use of idols are common in the Christian Greek Scriptures, also called the New Testament. For example, the apostle John admonished Christians: “Guard yourselves from idols.” (1 John 5:21) ...
...
Adoption of Icons by “Christians”

The Encyclopædia Britannica says that “during the first three centuries of the Christian Church, . . . there was no Christian art, and the church generally resisted it with all its might. Clement of Alexandria, for example, criticized religious (pagan) art in that it encouraged people to worship that which is created rather than the Creator.”
...
Footnote: Generally, a religious icon is a representation or symbol venerated by members of a particular religion. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, for example, some are representations of Christ; others represent the Trinity, “saints,” angels or, as in the case mentioned above, Mary the mother of Jesus. Millions of people have a reverence for icons that resembles the attitude that many have toward images used in worship. Certain religions that do not claim to be Christian hold similar beliefs and feelings toward icons and images of their deities.

Source: Should Icons Be Used in Worship? Awake!—2005

An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined. Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol.

Source: Idol, Idolatry: Insight, Volume 1





edit on 13-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 01:27 PM
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a reply to: whereislogic

Actually I was curious. Nice dodge. I will take your answer to that you do not know anything about pagan theology.

So for example, in most Indo-European cultures (so everyone from the British Isles, to bits of the middle east and sub continent) there was not a concept of "fiery hell":.

The Irish had no Hell, they did have the Other world (like here but not) where you soul passed too after you died (after a trip through the Halls of Donn (Tech Duinn)). In Scandinavian tradition you might end up in cold dreary place (under the supervision of Hela) that is again not fiery and unpleasant.

So like I said, the "pagan concept of Hell" is not really what you were making it out to be, which is what happens when you cut and paste from sites not informed. Rather Duat (an Egyptian concept, and not universal in Paganism (Paleo, Meso, or Neo)) is nothing akin to the Abrahamic idea. But hey if it makes you happy, believe what you want


Triquerta predate Christianity (and are in multiple cultures), and yes show up in the Book of Kells, which is no shock, it was illustrated in a newly Christianized Eire, they used symbology from their culture. The Pentacle was also used in Christianity, to denote the 5 wounds of Christ, yet it is not Christian. You pointed at C Harmed as Pagan, using the symbol. Charmed was about as Pagan as A Tokyo St Patericks day parade is Irish or a Plastic Tiki is Maori. Translated I mean, there was no real Paganism, and a whole lot of Abrahamic ideas in Charmed.

So yeah cut and paste from Wikipedia all you like. You are not informed about what you are talking about. Much like when you try to talk to evolution



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 01:30 PM
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a reply to: joelr

Neopaganism (that modern version) has claimed the terms Pagan (country dweller) and heathen (lives on a heath) as a catch all phrase to denote what they mean by "pre-Christian spirituality", but you are correct, paganus and pagus etymologically do not mean what people use it to mean now. Words are fun, they change meaning. Nice used to mean strange, ghost used to mean stranger (and is related to guest and host).



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 01:30 PM
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a reply to: Oldtimer2

How the hell does this have anything to do with people being liberal or not? No seriously.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 08:39 PM
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originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut

Hmm I'm going to have to disagree about Pagan Faiths being well tolerated by Christian Communities. There are examples of forced conversions by Christians. For example I will mention the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae. What you listed was not really tolerance.

The history of the neopagan revival is fairly modern, and sits almost whole during the Victorian Deist period.

Now Witchcraft is a tricky thing. Viz all Wiccans are Witches, not all Witches are Wiccans. FOr the most part Witches are considered Pagan, with a few exceptions.



Only tolerated enough to help convert heathen, by use of their traditions and more. I don't believe these types of threads have ever really been active here. Would say there's is, but smaller overall, a population in the Conspiracy community that is more aligning to pagan beliefs, just have to look a little harder. I've found one "Illuminati researcher" that is not Christian, which is pretty interesting for that alternative take on it.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 08:42 PM
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originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Oldtimer2

How the hell does this have anything to do with people being liberal or not? No seriously.



Exactly and people so caught in partisan ideology also believe that pagan, or other non Christian based ideology has to be liberal. It's not exactly that way, as it varies for each person.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 08:45 PM
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a reply to: dreamingawake

I seem to remember a couple of threads attacking Paganism
But having lived in two countries (my native New Zealand and in the USA) there area LOT of Pagans who believe things that would be ontopic in ATS. I'm an odd duck Pagan (probably because I am a Celtic Recon) since I'm also a skeptic and Scientist.



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 11:37 PM
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a reply to: Noinden
The brands of paganism and the subjects in paganism you prefer talking about in support of what you're saying about me or my commentary or whatever you seem to imply that you're responding to in my commentary (which doesn't seem to be there or you're seeing something in my commentary that isn't there, I never brought up "modern pagan theology" in relation to your usage of the word "hell" nor said much about the TV-show "Charmed" other than something about the Triquetra); are not the only brands or teachings that can be termed "pagan" nor do they make the older pagan teachings about the concept of a hell or underworld (nether world) any less pagan nor do they negate or change the fact that that concept isn't taught in the bible. It's not from the bible but originates from paganism in Egypt, Babylon and the ancient Greeks and the version of hell you spoke about initially is still dependent on the teaching of the immortality of the soul as the immaterial invisible part of man, another pagan teaching which you spoke about as well in your last comment when describing the soul going somewhere after a person has died (a soul that doesn't die when the person dies). Paganism has been around for a while. The Babylonian, Egyptian and Greek religious philosophies, traditions and rituals I spoke about or are discussed in the links are as much pagan as whatever you prefer to count as pagan. Like I said initially regarding the question in the OP, it all depends on how you're going to count. Christendom, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, New Age, Wicca, Shintoism, etc. all contain pagan teachings, traditions, rituals, idolatry and festivals (sometimes modified, sometimes hardly changed at all, often multiple versions of the same core teaching, tradition, ritual, form of idolatry or festival). Paganism is not limited to "Indo-European cultures" or neopaganism or "modern pagan theology". All I said about the TV-show "Charmed" was:

“The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

As it can also be found in Wicca. Someone here might have noticed the Triquetra symbol on the magic book cover in the TV-series "Charmed". This has been used in Christendom as a symbol of the Trinity as well.
edit on 14-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2017 @ 11:46 PM
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a reply to: whereislogic

Neighbour I am very good friends with a founder of the modern khemetic tradition as well as several other promenant pagans. I wager I know more than you



posted on Dec, 14 2017 @ 03:33 AM
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originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: Noinden
... nor do they make the older pagan teachings about the concept of a hell or underworld (nether world [or "Other World"]) any less pagan nor do they negate or change the fact that that concept isn't taught in the bible. It's not from the bible but originates from paganism in Egypt, Babylon and the ancient Greeks and the version of hell you spoke about initially is still dependent on the teaching of the immortality of the soul as the immaterial invisible part of man, another pagan teaching which you spoke about as well in your last comment when describing the soul going somewhere after a person has died (a soul that doesn't die when the person dies). ...


The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.

Source: Hell: Insight, Volume 1

Still just listing the historical facts about the "hell" you mentioned and I initially responded to. As mentioned before, the pagan Greek philosophers are involved as well:

The doctrine that hell is a place of torment is not based on the Bible. Rather, it is a pagan belief masquerading as a Christian teaching.
...
A BRIEF HISTORY OF HELL

ROOTS IN PAGAN BELIEFS: The ancient Egyptians believed in a fiery hell. The Book Ȧm-Ṭuat, dated 1375 B.C.E., speaks of those who “shall be cast down headlong into the pits of fire; and . . . shall not escape therefrom, and . . . shall not be able to flee from the flames.” Greek philosopher Plutarch (c.46-120 C.E.) wrote of those in the world below: “[They] raised a cry of wailing as they underwent fearful torments and ignominious and excruciating chastisements.”

SECTS OF JUDAISM ARE INFECTED: The historian Josephus (37-c.100 C.E.) reported that the Essenes, a Jewish sect, believed that “the souls are immortal, and continue forever.” He added: “This is like the opinion of the Greeks . . . They allot to bad souls a dark and tempestuous den, full of never-ceasing punishments.”

Talking about modernized modified versions of the core philosophies and concepts discussed above isn't going to make what's mentioned above any less factual either: "The doctrine that hell is a place of torment is not based on the Bible. Rather, it is a pagan belief masquerading as a Christian teaching." ... "ROOTS IN PAGAN BELIEFS" ... "The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt." ... Although ancient Egyptian [pagan] religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the [pagan] “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”

Just like the core concept of a Trinity can be found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon, Egypt and throughout the Greek Empire in many variations.

Remember, in my first reply to you I said: "Talking about the Pagan concept of a fiery hell...", not "modern pagan concept of a fiery hell" or something similar that you seem to prefer responding to as if that is what you need to show is incorrect with your references to a slightly different concept of an "Other World", "modern pagan theology" and "in most Indo-European cultures", "Scandinavian tradition", etc. I was talking about the pagan concept of a fiery hell that is taught in Christendom* as it was taught and originates from pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon, Egypt and throughout the Greek Empire. Scandinavians have nothing to do with it.


*: since that was also the type of hell you spoke about until you changed the subject to other similar teachings in other brands of paganism as if it somehow negates or corrects that statement that a fiery hell of that type is a pagan concept, ancient Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek paganism is still paganism regardless if you prefer phrases such as "an Egyptian concept, and not universal in Paganism (Paleo, Meso, or Neo)" to avoid any acknowledgement of the fact that it's pagan and described as such by serious reputable historians; and to argue against that initial phrase of mine.

edit on 14-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2017 @ 01:52 PM
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a reply to: whereislogic

No you are quoting things from the internet, rather than having actually studied it. There is a big difference. Indeed you are not even regularly citing where you get things from. That is naughty.

When you do cite, you cite Jehovahs witness dogma. A group known to be hostile to Pagan faiths.

So Duat, the so called "hell" of the Egyptian cosmology. It should be noted that Duat is not akin to the Abrahamic Hell (1).

Strangely enough you've singled out one area from the PreChristian era. The Middle east. Which overlaps with where all the Abrahamic faiths were born. The Mesopotanian afterlife (Irkalla (Akkadian),[1] Kur (Sumerian) or Ersetu (also Akkadian)) is where ALL the dead go. Again not Hell.

You are fond of mentioning the Greeks. I have bad news for you. They were an Indo-European Culture. Again you don't find a Hell there. Though the Abrahamic faiths try really hard


So again, your idea that Hell is a Pagan concept, is purely your Jehovahs witness dogma. So your historical "facts" are simply your cherry picked disorted examples, to try and prove something.

So this is to the OP. THIS is why Pagan threads don't happen. Some Abrhamic missionary comes in and stomps all over them. They don't like other faiths talking about themselves here.

(1) Pinch, G.: "Magic in Ancient Egypt". British Museum Press, 1994 p34



posted on Dec, 14 2017 @ 03:24 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Hiya 😃 did you ever find that bbc documentary when God was a woman made by the bbc?.



posted on Dec, 14 2017 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Oh do ignore them I would love to hear about your pagan ways 😀. I love the stories.



posted on Dec, 14 2017 @ 03:26 PM
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a reply to: testingtesting

I did, though I'm a bigger fan of Myth of the Matriarchal Prehistory by Cynthia Eller. My polytheism embraces all Gods, even that quaint Abrhamic one.



posted on Dec, 14 2017 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: testingtesting

Nah I'm not going to ignore them
That particular individual and I tend to interact elsewhere in a similar way


I posted a link, up thread to the CR FAQ Book which is a good primer of where I start from.

But in short, I'm a Págántacht and Senistrognata, who shows special reverence for An Morrigan, An Dagda, Lugh, and Ogma.



posted on Dec, 14 2017 @ 04:34 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

Cool site just the place to start mt search, I have been hanging around a Hindu temple near me cool dudes tbh I could really pull off a turban
.
Do you think Hinduism is similar to paganism?.




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