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Did Jerusalem Ever Belong to Palestine?

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posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 01:42 PM
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I never really understood why Palestine has a claim over east Jerusalem or all of Jerusalem. I'm not disputing they're a people, in fact they're the political definition of a nation. To become a state you must be internationally recognized and they have partial recognition from the UN. Whatever that means.

My question is has there ever been an actual independent Palestinian government that ruled over all of Jerusalem? Seems like empires would come in and pick whoever was loyal to them to rule. All three Religions have claim to the city, so religion is no valid reason to govern Jerusalem.

I've only done some cursory reading because I'm lazy. So the Ottoman Empire had influence or control over Jerusalem and Palestine(called something slightly different) up until WW1 when the British won the city at the Battle of Jerusalem(1917). Ottomans lost, and a few years after the war, the League of Nations entrusted the UK with the whole region. The city went from pre WW1 population of 8000 to 165000 by 1948.

The UN had planned to split the land somehow but their plan was never implemented because war broke out and the israelis declared their independence after the British abandoned the region. In 1948, Jerusalem is declared the capital of the new state of Israel. A cease fire with Jordan is achieved between two officers and a hand drawn line on a map that splits Jerusalem between east and west(guess they were copying Berlin). In 1950, east Jerusalem is annexed by Jordan.

Then come all the Arab-Israeli wars sometimes started by Israel sometimes started by the Arab states. From 1948 on, the constant wars led to Arab states expelling all their Jewish citizens, which of course led to more Jewish people settling in Israel.

In 1967 Israel went to war with Egypt. On the 2nd day, Jordan joined the Six Day War. Jordan lost east Jerusalem after hand to hand fighting on the Temple Mount. And Israel did to east Jerusalem what Jordan did in 1950, they extended their laws and jurisdiction.

And here we are, basically nothing has changed since. There was the Camp David Accords and other such peace talks and negotiations, but they all leave the Palestinians unhappy or without a say in the matter.

So Jerusalem is ruled by the Ottoman empire, then the British empire, then an independent Israeli state, then Jordan and back to Israel. How or when did Palestine ever rule over Jerusalem as a nation state?

This is probably gonna piss people off, but the Palestenians' situation reminds me a bit of Native Americans. They feel that outsiders came and stole their land and they want it back. I understand that. But there are certain realities that make it impossible. They're not well organized, they don't have a real fighting force and they've never been an internationally recognized state in the modern era. Either they've been governed by Arab states or empires. As far as I can tell there's only one way for Palestine to have it's independence and have the entire city of Jerusalem as it's capital and that is the same way Israel created itself. War.

Independence is won by war or overwhelming international pressure. Taiwan is still waiting for the international community to accept their statehood!!! They're the only democratic people of China left and the world won't recognize them. Their government has existed for over 100 years and they've been waiting for recognition for 60 years. So Palestine is absolutely screwed if international pressure is what they're banking on.

Wether you support the US embassy moving to Jerusalem or not, at least it's changing the status quo and getting people to talk, or scream sometimes in this case at the issue. The status of Jerusalem and the people of Palestine have been in limbo for years, someone at some point has to make a decision. Makes me laugh that Trump is the one to make the first move.




posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: GokuVsSuperman0

More of a Muslim Claim than Palestinians.



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 01:56 PM
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originally posted by: GokuVsSuperman0





They're not well organized, they don't have a real fighting force and they've never been an internationally recognized state in the modern era.



So being a disorganised group/nation of people and having no "real fighting force" is your definition of what constitutes a country? Interesting



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 02:00 PM
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originally posted by: GokuVsSuperman0
Independence is won by war or overwhelming international pressure. Taiwan is still waiting for the international community to accept their statehood!!! They're the only democratic people of China left and the world won't recognize them. Their government has existed for over 100 years and they've been waiting for recognition for 60 years.

The parallel is far from exact, because the international community used to recognise Taiwan and then stopped doing it. To be exact, Taiwan held the "China" permanent seat on the Security Council (it's hard to be more "recognised" than that) until a U.N. vote kicked them off in Nixon's time.
If anything, the international community now is trying to send Israel down the Taiwan route.



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: angelchemuel
I dunno do Native Americans have their own country or maybe you read what I said wrong lol



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 02:05 PM
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Ancient Jerusalem was part of the land of a people called the Canaanites.
IT WAS NOT ALWAYS IN THE POSSEION OF JEWS!

The Israelis under David conquered the city and stole it from the Canaanites. Then the Jewish religion didn’t even exist at that time.

The history they tell us is much distorted


+3 more 
posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 02:51 PM
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a reply to: GokuVsSuperman0

The answer is no.

The Muslims built their mosques on top of Jewish religious sites...and Christian.

Destroy the evidence of the original owners.

At least the Jews allow all three religions to flourish. The Muslims? Not in a million years.

Based on that reality, alone, even if the Muslims were first, I'd support the Jews.



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 03:03 PM
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I can pose a scripture for you. Old Testament.

"Now the Lord had said to Abraham: Get out of your country, your father’s house, To a land (Israel) that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed". (Jesus will rule out of Jerusalem)



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 03:08 PM
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originally posted by: angelchemuel

originally posted by: GokuVsSuperman0





They're not well organized, they don't have a real fighting force and they've never been an internationally recognized state in the modern era.



So being a disorganised group/nation of people and having no "real fighting force" is your definition of what constitutes a country? Interesting


sometimes when I see retorts like this online, i just want to drop in a: 'Yes, thats exactly what he means and it is his entire definition of what you imply... great fallacy '

only sometimes though..



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 03:24 PM
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originally posted by: GokuVsSuperman0
I never really understood why Palestine has a claim over east Jerusalem or all of Jerusalem. I'm not disputing they're a people, in fact they're the political definition of a nation. To become a state you must be internationally recognized and they have partial recognition from the UN. Whatever that means.

My question is has there ever been an actual independent Palestinian government that ruled over all of Jerusalem? Seems like empires would come in and pick whoever was loyal to them to rule. All three Religions have claim to the city, so religion is no valid reason to govern Jerusalem.

I've only done some cursory reading because I'm lazy. So the Ottoman Empire had influence or control over Jerusalem and Palestine(called something slightly different) up until WW1 when the British won the city at the Battle of Jerusalem(1917). Ottomans lost, and a few years after the war, the League of Nations entrusted the UK with the whole region. The city went from pre WW1 population of 8000 to 165000 by 1948.

The UN had planned to split the land somehow but their plan was never implemented because war broke out and the israelis declared their independence after the British abandoned the region. In 1948, Jerusalem is declared the capital of the new state of Israel. A cease fire with Jordan is achieved between two officers and a hand drawn line on a map that splits Jerusalem between east and west(guess they were copying Berlin). In 1950, east Jerusalem is annexed by Jordan.

Then come all the Arab-Israeli wars sometimes started by Israel sometimes started by the Arab states. From 1948 on, the constant wars led to Arab states expelling all their Jewish citizens, which of course led to more Jewish people settling in Israel.

In 1967 Israel went to war with Egypt. On the 2nd day, Jordan joined the Six Day War. Jordan lost east Jerusalem after hand to hand fighting on the Temple Mount. And Israel did to east Jerusalem what Jordan did in 1950, they extended their laws and jurisdiction.

And here we are, basically nothing has changed since. There was the Camp David Accords and other such peace talks and negotiations, but they all leave the Palestinians unhappy or without a say in the matter.

So Jerusalem is ruled by the Ottoman empire, then the British empire, then an independent Israeli state, then Jordan and back to Israel. How or when did Palestine ever rule over Jerusalem as a nation state?

This is probably gonna piss people off, but the Palestenians' situation reminds me a bit of Native Americans. They feel that outsiders came and stole their land and they want it back. I understand that. But there are certain realities that make it impossible. They're not well organized, they don't have a real fighting force and they've never been an internationally recognized state in the modern era. Either they've been governed by Arab states or empires. As far as I can tell there's only one way for Palestine to have it's independence and have the entire city of Jerusalem as it's capital and that is the same way Israel created itself. War.

Independence is won by war or overwhelming international pressure. Taiwan is still waiting for the international community to accept their statehood!!! They're the only democratic people of China left and the world won't recognize them. Their government has existed for over 100 years and they've been waiting for recognition for 60 years. So Palestine is absolutely screwed if international pressure is what they're banking on.

Wether you support the US embassy moving to Jerusalem or not, at least it's changing the status quo and getting people to talk, or scream sometimes in this case at the issue. The status of Jerusalem and the people of Palestine have been in limbo for years, someone at some point has to make a decision. Makes me laugh that Trump is the one to make the first move.



www.dailysabah.com...
en.m.wikipedia.org...



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 03:25 PM
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Genesis 12: 7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD who had appeared to him.…



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 03:32 PM
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Man if ur gonna use the bible as source material then Canaanites are descended from Noah's grandson Canaan who was given the lands beyond Israel and the sea but settled in someone else's land instead and founded the Land of Canaan. He was warned that if he settled there his sons' sons would be enslaved blah blah blah old testament is bleak
a reply to: Willtell



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 05:09 PM
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a reply to: GokuVsSuperman0

Palestinian was well organized before the Illegal Aliens stole their land!!!!




edit on 11-12-2017 by mekhanics because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 05:50 PM
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the answer is a BIG NO.




posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 06:20 PM
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originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: GokuVsSuperman0

The answer is no.

The Muslims built their mosques on top of Jewish religious sites...and Christian.

Destroy the evidence of the original owners.

At least the Jews allow all three religions to flourish. The Muslims? Not in a million years.

Based on that reality, alone, even if the Muslims were first, I'd support the Jews.


And Christians and Jews built their houses of worship on Pagan sites

What's your point



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 06:23 PM
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originally posted by: GokuVsSuperman0
Man if ur gonna use the bible as source material then Canaanites are descended from Noah's grandson Canaan who was given the lands beyond Israel and the sea but settled in someone else's land instead and founded the Land of Canaan. He was warned that if he settled there his sons' sons would be enslaved blah blah blah old testament is bleak
a reply to: Willtell

The Jews of old were not dark skinned people. Noah was platinum blonde with blue eyes, David was ruddy with red hair. Ruddy meaning he had flushed cheeks, he could blush. Dark skinned people don't blush, neither are they born with blonde or red hair.

Esau is also described as ruddy and hairy. The Israelites back then were a white race. And who are the white races today?
I'm not saying this to be racist I'm just telling you how it was and is.
It was Noah's grandson Canaan (from Ham) who was the father of the darker skinned races, even the Arab races of today, Sheba and Dedan etc..were linked to Ham through his son Canaan.



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 06:24 PM
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originally posted by: Plotus
Genesis 12: 7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD who had appeared to him.…


Abraham had two sons, one the father of the Hebrews, Isaac, and the other the father of the Arabs, Ishmael--both Semites



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 06:25 PM
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It really doesn't matter if it ever was possessed by Palestine. Bottom line, Israel presently has the credible claim to Jerusalem and the ability and will to hold it. This is how the world has always operated, a series of conquests and property defenses. Israel has every right to do as they see fit with Jerusalem because Jerusalem is presently their claim.



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 06:31 PM
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a reply to: madenusa

That's absolutely FALSE

The early Hebrews were dark Asiatics. Not Europeans.





Song of Solomon 1:5-6King James Version (KJV)

5 I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.

6 Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.



The NT even describes Jesus as bronze



posted on Dec, 11 2017 @ 06:32 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
It really doesn't matter if it ever was possessed by Palestine. Bottom line, Israel presently has the credible claim to Jerusalem and the ability and will to hold it. This is how the world has always operated, a series of conquests and property defenses. Israel has every right to do as they see fit with Jerusalem because Jerusalem is presently their claim.


Yeah, its called might is right

Though things change in history




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