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Howard Admits Grandfather Was Illegal Immigrant

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posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Yip, to pre-empt revelations from investigative biographer Michael Crick, Howard has admitted his Grandfather entered the UK illegally. (To the pro Tory Daily Mail of course)



www.sundayherald.com...

Howard, who has made a hard-line immigration policy the centre plank of his general election campaign, made the confession to forestall the revelations being made by the investigative biographer Michael Crick.

Crick, who has delved into the backgrounds of Sir Jeffrey Archer and Sir Alex Ferguson in explosive books, was poised to reveal the Tory leader’s family secret in a biography to be published before the election.

Alerted to the story by a series of questions submitted by Crick, Howard’s advisers chose to defuse the situation yesterday by offering a soft confessional interview to the Tory-supporting Daily Mail.


You have to laugh really. Yes Michael, if your own proposed policies had been used on your Grandfather you wouldn't even be here!




posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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yeah i heard about this yesterday...


Originally posted by kegs

You have to laugh really. Yes Michael, if your own proposed policies had been used on your Grandfather you wouldn't even be here!




I dont agree, it says his grandfather got into the country "illegally" - ie.the policies of the time outlawed him entering the country, so who's to say howards policies used at this time wouldve stopped him getting in?!



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 03:28 PM
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From the article:


While Howard’s father came to Britain legally as an economic migrant the Tory leader said he did not know if his grandfather would have been allowed in under his party’s immigration plans.

“I cannot answer that. We have not yet worked out how the points system will operate,” he said.


Typical political way of saying no, he wouldn't.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 03:31 PM
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The world is a very different place now from what it was 50 years ago, nations have changed, peoples have changed, the rules have changed, I won't hold it against Michael Howard and it does in no way effect the Tory Immigration or Asylum Policy.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 07:39 AM
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Yes, of course the changes are a factor. I just find it amusing more than anything else. It will have a political cost though, it will be an embarrassment and probably one that will be brought up a few times between now and May whenever the immigration policies crop up. They can't really afford many embarrassments, however small, in this election.

I'm sure it will make some people think a little harder about voting for a man who would enact policies that could have negated his own existence. lol. Reminds me of those time travel paradoxes... There's a question to ask him in the commons: "Michael if you could go back in time and kill your own grandfather would you?... Or would you just get him a passport?"




[edit on 14-2-2005 by kegs]



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 08:24 AM
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It doesn't look good, does it?



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
It doesn't look good, does it?



which means...



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
[which means...


- Well I'd have thought it pretty obvious Wizaed.

It means a number of people are going to see this as laughably hypocritical and I'd suggest others will see this as something a little more general and symptomatic of todays tory party.

1st generation immigrants' kids trying to be more English/British than the English/British (and ending up doing a deeply unappealing caricature of 'Britishness' as a result).

He's not the first either. Portillo's story is somewhat similar.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 05:00 AM
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As Wizard said, its a completely different world we're living in now, immigration is totally different to what it was 50 years ago.

And if we're going to talk hypocrosy, how about labour's?
'Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime'? Don't make me laugh! 'Please Mr burglar/drug dealer/assaulter, have this piece of paper and play nicely from now on mmm'kay'

Or the tax raid on pensions to pay for more publice sector voters, I mean workers. Then they have the audacity to tell us that we have to save more and work longer! Cheeky b'stards

Then theres the favourite cry of the left, its never, ever far from their lips.....'POLL TAX POLL TAX POLL TAX BLAH BLAH BLAH. Try and tell me the council tax is any fairer. and it. keeps. on. rising.......



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by ridcully
As Wizard said, its a completely different world we're living in now, immigration is totally different to what it was 50 years ago.


- You guys don't half love this 'that was a long time ago' routine, huh?

So you can't see any scope for personal embarrassment (in the wider community) for Howard given his own personal background, no?
OK, if you say so.

I'd say it is perfectly clear to anyone who cares to admit it but I guess we'll just have to wait until it becomes a staple well-worn tv joke before you'll admit the obvious, right?


And if we're going to talk hypocrosy, how about labour's?
'Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime'? Don't make me laugh! 'Please Mr burglar/drug dealer/assaulter, have this piece of paper and play nicely from now on mmm'kay'


- I think a matter of hypocrisy over ones' own personal family history is a little different to the usual political to and fro over their records and intentions etc etc.
Well, it is to most people I'm sure.

In any case overall crime is down under Labour when one compares 1997 rates with the latest figures available, unlike the overall doubling that went on under the length of the tory rule.

Maybe you'd like to explain how come most of the countries in continental Europe manage to have a lower level of crime than us and a much lower prison population?
Given the choice between the European 'model' of society and how it deals with crime verses the US model I'd rather go Euro anytime. Which this gov is gradually doing, unlike the last.

It's what I voted for; it's what people will vote for again in the coming general election.
3rd huge drubbing for the tory party coming up. Enjoy.


Or the tax raid on pensions to pay for more publice sector voters, I mean workers. Then they have the audacity to tell us that we have to save more and work longer! Cheeky b'stards


- If you knew the slightest thing about this you'd know that the amount of revenue Gordon Brown has not given back to the 'pensions industry' (cos we are talking about the removal of a tax relief......

......funnily these subsidies were something tories used to complain about as tax reliefs distort the maket etc etc).......

....... is a mere fraction of what has really gone on causing the real trouble. ie the decline and stagnation in the stock market itself.
(Which looks like it might be coming to an end at long last what with the FTSE100 now moving and staying at over 5000 for the first time in ages.)

In any event it is a simple fact that under any possible UK gov we would still be facing the same thing, an aging population and a declined and then flat stock market.
But for all these difficulties we at least have not had the usual tory feature of a massive recession every 10yrs on top of our existing problems.

Comparing Labour's economic record to the tory record is no comparison at all.
OK everything is not perfect but it sure beats the 2 longest, deepest most damaging recessions post war.

.....oh yeah, you guys don't like talking about the tory record do you?
You'd rather everyone just ignored what almost 20yrs of the tories being in power did for so many and just bicker and snipe that Labour hasn't seen the dawn of heaven on earth.



Then theres the favourite cry of the left, its never, ever far from their lips.....'POLL TAX POLL TAX POLL TAX BLAH BLAH BLAH. Try and tell me the council tax is any fairer. and it. keeps. on. rising.......


- Er, the council tax is a tory tax too, just like the Poll Tax, actually.
John Major's gov brought that one in if you recall.

I'm all ears for how you intend to fund local services of you are going to do away with this local tax, cos with the promises your heros keep making (additional spending, plus tax cuts) I'd love to know.

Anyone would think the council tax (or any other tax for that matter) never went up under the tories!
Yeah right.





[edit on 18-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

So you can't see any scope for personal embarrassment (in the wider community) for Howard given his own personal background.


yes i do, but its not a big issue - lets just discuss the issues that really count. if his policies are the right ones, this shouldnt matter.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
In any case overall crime is down under Labour when one compares 1997 rates with the latest figures available, unlike the overall doubling that went on under the length of the tory rule.


well firstly this depends on the figures you choose! Which is why stats, so often are a pile of tripe. there is no doubting that levels of violent crime are increasing.

again this depends on your background, eg.where you live, but i would suggest the majority of streets in britain are less safe than 8 years ago - this is certainly true of where i live. and blairs government is doing NOTHING, that i can see, to tackle the root causes of crime. and those root causes lie in the fact that society in the UK is getting worse and worse, mainly through cultural changes in our youth. i would be interested to see stats on crimes committed by under 18's since labour took over.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Maybe you'd like to explain how come most of the countries in continental Europe manage to have a lower level of crime than us and a much lower prison population?
Given the choice between the European 'model' of society and how it deals with crime verses the US model I'd rather go Euro anytime. Which this gov is gradually doing, unlike the last.


the problem is, not the system of policing or our crime laws. it lies in our culture shifting more and more towards american culture. the european culture is different to ours, and until we have a culture where the youth have respect for others, then we cannot implement left wing policies towards crime. i would personally like to see a much more right wing attitude - things like increased censorship should be put in place. the government should take begin to control what our children see and hear on the TV, radio and computer games, etc. controversial hey? but something has to be done.

children who are getting arrested, expelled etc when theyre young are currently not dealt with in the correct way - "give them a written warning and a meeting with a policeman" - what a joke!!! these children are not being taught respect by their parents or by anyone else in society- so someone else has to do it. boot camps (based upon a new, british style model, not the american model that most will associate boot camps with) should be implemented. controversial - but i said in another post i was right wing in my attitudes toward crime! come on then sminky, i know youre gonna have a lot to say about this!





Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
But for all these difficulties we at least have not had the usual tory feature of a massive recession every 10yrs on top of our existing problems.


thats true, but we are in a very different economic age. the recessions that came around were on the back of worldwide recessions. we had a small blip in the world economy about 3/4 years ago, but on nowhere near the same scale. so the comparison is unfair. the way the economy is handled is very different now, and seemingly much more effective through lessons learned.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
.....oh yeah, you guys don't like talking about the tory record do you?
You'd rather everyone just ignored what almost 20yrs of the tories being in power did for so many


can you not think of anything positive to come out of the thatcher government???! im not an expert on her time in charge, but im quite happy with things such as privatisation (the railways being the only failure of this policy), decreased union power, and economic measures implemented such as using the interest rates to control the economy as opposed to the money supply. i do honestly believe that her government laid the foundations for the successful economy we've enjoyed over the past 12years.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Er, the council tax is a tory tax too, just like the Poll Tax, actually.
John Major's gov brought that one in if you recall.


not a huge fan of the council tax, but lets face it - its the labour councils where we are seeing the hugest council tax rises. if we were seeing equal increases in the benefits of how its being spent then fine. but by and large, i dont believe we are.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I'm all ears for how you intend to fund local services of you are going to do away with this local tax, cos with the promises your heros keep making (additional spending, plus tax cuts) I'd love to know.


thats the 64 million dollar question.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Anyone would think the council tax (or any other tax for that matter) never went up under the tories!


of course it did, but not by the same proportion as its going up now.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by gareth_24
yes i do, but its not a big issue - lets just discuss the issues that really count. if his policies are the right ones, this shouldnt matter.


- Come on, we were asked what we thought about this specific point surely?


well firstly this depends on the figures you choose! Which is why stats, so often are a pile of tripe. there is no doubting that levels of violent crime are increasing.


- Of course, that is why I referred to overall crime levels.

But we should also not get things so out of proportion that we stop recognising the violent crime, up or not, (like gun crime in the UK) is at a very very low level compared with many developed countries and not something most encounter often if at all.


again this depends on your background, eg.where you live, but i would suggest the majority of streets in britain are less safe than 8 years ago - this is certainly true of where i live.


- OK, I can see that you might believe that. All I can say is that I have walked the streets of London in the dead of night, I used to live in and go to some supposedly very dodgy areas (Brixton, Archway, Hammersmith, Forest Gate, Dagenham, Hoxton, Deptford, Clapton and Hackney to name a few) and whilst I have no doubt these were crime (and violent crime) 'hot - spots' I never once saw or was involved in anything.

Ditto with some scary parts of Belfast during the troubles when I was in my teens and early 20s.
OK, bit stupid this one but it remains the truth that I have traipsed the streets of Belfast in the early wee hours (won't give anything away as to why but no prizes for guessing!) and again never had a problem.

I'm not denying that these places have more than there fair share of trouble but I am saying that it is not quite as some imagine 24/7.


and blairs government is doing NOTHING, that i can see, to tackle the root causes of crime.


- I'd call the huge strides made in tackling the bulk of the UK's youth unemployment problem a major and effective tactic in dealing with the causes of crime (which is skewed mostly toward the young).


and those root causes lie in the fact that society in the UK is getting worse and worse, mainly through cultural changes in our youth. i would be interested to see stats on crimes committed by under 18's since labour took over.


- So would I......but it means a trawl through the Home Office stuff!



the problem is, not the system of policing or our crime laws. it lies in our culture shifting more and more towards american culture.


- I agree, there is a lot in this.
I also see no good reason for us to tolerate this in view of the harm it is doing us and I think we should refocus on our manifest and many cultural links with continental Europe.


the european culture is different to ours, and until we have a culture where the youth have respect for others, then we cannot implement left wing policies towards crime.


- I think it is more a matter of political will. Sadly I can't really go too far backing Labour's crime policies as I don't see much difference from the tory approach.

It sure as hell isn't a European approach and the prison population is either at or just under the highest it has ever been. This ludicrous 'dutch auction' between tory and Labour over who can be the harshest on crime with their ever more (ineffective) hard-line is to me as depressing as it is futile.....counter-productive even as it creates a climate unhelpful and more brutal in wider society IMO and I see nothing of value for any of us in this in a more brutalised society.


i would personally like to see a much more right wing attitude - things like increased censorship should be put in place. the government should take begin to control what our children see and hear on the TV, radio and computer games, etc. controversial hey? but something has to be done.


- Hmmm not sure I would call it censorship as such.
I agree that elements of the 'I want it all and I want it now' society can and should be tackled.
My view would be to adopt several measures - starting with something like the Scandinavian approach where they ban advertising to children.


children who are getting arrested, expelled etc when theyre young are currently not dealt with in the correct way - "give them a written warning and a meeting with a policeman" - what a joke!!!


- ....and yet for some that works. For some that is all it takes. For some it ios absolutely not a joke. My brother many years back had to go se the local Police chief with our dad because of his age (16) over a traffic offence, he sure as heel didn't think it was funny and by God our dad removed any thoughts that it was a mild and ineffective thing.
But why misrepresent this? This 'idea' is simply broadening out what has existed for years - under many tory years too.
I don't think anyone sees that as the entire strategy, do you.....really?


these children are not being taught respect by their parents or by anyone else in society- so someone else has to do it.


- But when this gov introduced 'parenting classes' for exactly this kind of problem the tory party and their pals in the press (the Telegraph included) started raving on and on about the 'nanny state' and this gov's apparant 'control freakery' and their intrusion into the great British homestead!

Talk about a deeply unhelpful attitude and trying to have it both ways, surely?


boot camps (based upon a new, british style model, not the american model that most will associate boot camps with) should be implemented. controversial


- Again for some - but only some - they work. But again they can hardly be the be-all and end-all of the anti-crime strategy now can they?

The tory party loves to trot this one out as the solution to all our ills.
I guess you are too young to have heard of Willie Whitelaw and his promise of the 'short sharp shock' camps where ex-military sargeant-major types were going to instill respect and if not the fear of God into the nation's wayward youth?

It's all been done before and sadly it doesn't, alone, bring the enormous benfits you imagine.


but i said in another post i was right wing in my attitudes toward crime! come on then sminky, i know youre gonna have a lot to say about this!


- Then I'm glad to oblige you with some responses!



thats true, but we are in a very different economic age. the recessions that came around were on the back of worldwide recessions.


- Ok, there is some truth in that but it cannot be denied that compared to the US and the then western European states the British experience was longer, deeper and worse that theirs due to the policies the gov then followed.


the way the economy is handled is very different now, and seemingly much more effective through lessons learned.


- ...and yet the tory party have claimed a disasterous - worst ever! - recession is due any moment since day 1 of this Labour gov since 1997.


can you not think of anything positive to come out of the thatcher government???!


- The truth?
Not a lot. A lot would have happened anyway IMO and much of what 'good' they did was spoiled by their inerring ability to go so waaaay to far with it to the point where the benefits were lost.

I think the almost 20yrs of tory gov brought major influences and changes to the culture of the UK (some of which are directly related to what we have been saying in relation to crime above) which we could have done without. Thatcher's slavish adoration of Reaganite America and all things Reaganite American was not the best idea IMO.

I'll go along with the idea that the balance in Labour relations had swung maybe too far towards the unions and that that needed sorting out. Thatcher in particular took this waaaay too far and caused, IMO unnecessary and mostly completely avoidable, massive hardship almost like a badge of pride.

On balance I think she did more harm than good.
Even her supposed 'great military acheivement' of the Falkland's war was caused by her pig-.ed refusal to listen to what would happen if she insisted in removing the Royal Navy's patrol ship HMS Endurance - we even know from the Argentinians memoirs that they lept at the chance this would bring them, and they did. You might stand a chance of writing that off as conjecture were it not for the fact the matter had been looked at a fewyears before in the mid 1970's and abandoned because wiser council saw what it was almost certainly going to lead to.

Still it all worked out for her, she went from 20-something in the polls and a dead cert to be out on her ear to a landslide win in 1983. Shame about the cost.

.....and some tories have the gaul to criticise Blair over Iraq!


im not an expert on her time in charge, but im quite happy with things such as privatisation


- I have no doubt that 'privatisation' has it's place too but once again it was taken way too far.

Do you know about the privatised RAF maintenance contracts? Saved the MOD around a hundred million and cost it a few hundred more due to the damage the contractors caused!

That is the mentality.

Look at the health bug MRSA, totally connected to the privatisation of hospital cleaning where cost and not quality is the prime motivator.
Enjoy.


economic measures implemented such as using the interest rates to control the economy as opposed to the money supply.


- Er, hang on.
It was Thatcher than introduced this monetarism BS.

She was a fan of Milton Friedman and the Chicago school of economics and tried to introduce a rigid control of the money supply as the tools of economic policy (oh the joys of studying the movements of M1 and M3 25yrs ago!
).
That led to their jacking up interest rates through the roof in an attempt to sustain the £ at a far too high level which slaughtered 20% of Britains manufacturing base (20%!).
This gave us, at a time of a world dip, the 1st, early 1980's, severe tory recession and which led to it being deeper and more prolonged than anywhere else in the western world.

Once that had been discredited she was forced to ditch monetarism and go along with Lawson in shadowing the D-mark (at 3Dm's/£ back then), this was another disaster as interest rates were cut to maintain the £'s value against the Dm when they should have been understanding the building consumer boom needed scalling back, not accelerating through too low interest rates.

So they practically did everything they could to accelerate the boom until it was too late. Oh the joys of the (then) London Evening Standard telling us all our houses were leaping in price by £57 a day (that was their .line on night)!

So the crash came as interest rates skyrocketed.

Major & Co. then forced her to go into the ERM at a (then) ridiculously high and unsustainable rate - it was the usual tory trick, never mind sustainability, expedient politics was the order of the day and a quick fix mentality - and we had ultra high interest rates for another grossly extended period before defending the indefensible became too great and the Bank of England and HM Gov found out just how little 'sovereignty' they actually had alone and had to leave the ERM.....which in tory eyes became all Europe's fault!

Anyhoo, they promptly dumped her as she got more loopy and likely to lose them the next election in 1992, Major won in 1992 under his 'I'm not Thatcher and see how we've changed' act and ended up saddled with the inevitable consequences of her 'reign'.

You try owning property with a mortgage and experience a Bank of England base rate (which mean lower than the commercial rates) of 10%+ and tell me all about how using interest rates as the sole means of regulating the economy is a great thing.

The public quickly saw through Major, hated the Major experience and basically if you look at the polls have hated them with a passion ever since.
.....and seeing as so many were hurt for so long by them it'll be a long long time until the experience is forgotten.
Tough luck if you're a tory but there's the truth of it.


i do honestly believe that her government laid the foundations for the successful economy we've enjoyed over the past 12years.


- If the tories had managed a run of more than 3 - 4 good years in their near 20yrs you might have a point, the trouble is they didn't.
They also left office with the UK having record levels of debt which was accelerating at a record rate. Hence the first 2yrs where Labour was forced to keep spending nailed down.
Also they have been dead set against everything this Labour gov has done since 1997, so no, I don't give them any credit.

......and how come it's ok to try and claim a little credit on what you imagine has gone well but beyond reason for Labour to point out the deep-seated nature of many of Britain's problems, hmmm?


not a huge fan of the council tax, but lets face it - its the labour councils where we are seeing the hugest council tax rises.


- Not so.
You have to be only talking about band e and above to make that claim stick.
For most people's housing (band a - d) Labour councils do well in comparison to the tory councils.


if we were seeing equal increases in the benefits of how its being spent then fine. but by and large, i dont believe we are.


- It's certainly not heaven on earth but I do not believe that anyone can now seriously doubt the improvements in the public services but whether your local authority is making the most of the much improved central gov funding settlements they have been given in recent years isanother matter - and possibly indicative of the parlous state they were on not so long ago.


thats the 64 million dollar question.


- Well so far we've had 2 tory attempts at it and neither seem particularly popular - and just wait until there is another property revaluation, that went down well in Wales in 2003 I believe, not - but if anyone else has any bright ideas lets hear them.


of course it did, but not by the same proportion as its going up now.


- I think you'll find that that is simply not true - for most.
When Major was shifting the burden from central gov as much as he could I recall huge rises after the couple of 'honeymoon' bedding in years.



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

I'm not denying that these places have more than there fair share of trouble but I am saying that it is not quite as some imagine 24/7.


no, of course not. but you said you came across no-one. well, i wonder what would have happened if you had. unfortunately, all it wouldve taken is for you to glance at them for a second, or not give them a light, or something equally as petty, and you couldve been in trouble.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- I'd call the huge strides made in tackling the bulk of the UK's youth unemployment problem a major and effective tactic in dealing with the causes of crime (which is skewed mostly toward the young).


but when such a large amount of the crime is committed by those of school age, whats the good in that? ive said to you before, in my experience, most crime is not committed by over 18's (which, I believe is the age that you start becoming a "statistic" on the unemployment figures - BUT i stand to be corrected here as im not 100% sure).


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I also see no good reason for us to tolerate this in view of the harm it is doing us and I think we should refocus on our manifest and many cultural links with continental Europe.


i have no problem with this, but on an entirely separate note, we should also refocus on remembering OUR heritage and culture, as brits.




Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Hmmm not sure I would call it censorship as such.
I agree that elements of the 'I want it all and I want it now' society can and should be tackled.
My view would be to adopt several measures - starting with something like the Scandinavian approach where they ban advertising to children.


ive actually studied the effects of advertising on children and have failed to come up with a total idea - i dont know about going as far as the scandinavians and others, but certainly i think some restrictive measures are needed here.

but i was thinking more along the lines of reinforcing the watershed much more strictly, moving the watershed to a later time, doing much more to control what type of console games kids are getting hold of, songs with explicit lyrics being played only after a certain hour on radio, etc.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- ....and yet for some that works. For some that is all it takes. For some it ios absolutely not a joke.


agree, but, IMO, thats only the kids who are scared that their parents will kill them!!! for those with parents who are more irresponsible and wont enforce any discipline on their kids - it is a joke.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
But why misrepresent this? This 'idea' is simply broadening out what has existed for years - under many tory years too.
I don't think anyone sees that as the entire strategy, do you.....really?


but with persistent young offenders - this IS what happens, prior to getting an ASBO. which are themselves, a joke! I have the misfortune to know someone who is banned from a certain area in cardiff due to an asbo. he still goes there - but is just more careful not to get caught and gets his mates to do his dirty work for him.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- But when this gov introduced 'parenting classes' for exactly this kind of problem the tory party and their pals in the press (the Telegraph included) started raving on and on about the 'nanny state' and this gov's apparant 'control freakery' and their intrusion into the great British homestead!


but lets be fair, i dont know about this, but the idea of "parenting classes" sounds like a joke. if you care enough to be a good parent - generally you will be.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Again for some - but only some - they work. But again they can hardly be the be-all and end-all of the anti-crime strategy now can they?


amongst many of the young - yes i think it can. obviously there has to be other measures, but the biggest problem we have is discipline and this, if implemented and run properly, without abuse - IMO, could work.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The tory party loves to trot this one out as the solution to all our ills.
I guess you are too young to have heard of Willie Whitelaw and his promise of the 'short sharp shock' camps where ex-military sargeant-major types were going to instill respect and if not the fear of God into the nation's wayward youth?


nope, never heard of it sorry! but ive only ever heard this idea mentioned once by the tories, about 2 or 3 years ago - and never heard about it since.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

It's all been done before and sadly it doesn't, alone, bring the enormous benfits you imagine.


like i say, if its run and implemented correctly over a lengthy period of time, i think it can.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- ...and yet the tory party have claimed a disasterous - worst ever! - recession is due any moment since day 1 of this Labour gov since 1997.


well ive not heard that said once! but possibly political rants? or just very bad foresight - who knows!




Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
On balance I think she did more harm than good.


well like i said, im not hugely knowledgeable about this period of british history so i wont argue (because anything i say is likely to be hearsay rather than actual knowledge!)




Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Look at the health bug MRSA, totally connected to the privatisation of hospital cleaning where cost and not quality is the prime motivator.
Enjoy.


now i KNOW this was implemeted during the Major years! Theres talk of Labour reversing this policy now, am i right? this actually came up in a class discussion about 3 months ago so its relatively fresh in my mind.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Er, hang on.
It was Thatcher than introduced this monetarism BS.


couldve sworn that "this monetarism BS" came out of the government of the 70's - but am sadly lacking in facts here - so if you think youre right you probably are!!!


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

She was a fan of Milton Friedman and the Chicago school of economics and tried to introduce a rigid control of the money supply as the tools of economic policy (oh the joys of studying the movements of M1 and M3 25yrs ago!
).


wow, youre memory is a whole lot better than mine - i studied it about 7 years ago!!! although this was not my favourite part of economics to be truthful - present me with a supply and demand diagram though and im a whizz!


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Major & Co. then forced her to go into the ERM at a (then) ridiculously high and unsustainable rate - it was the usual tory trick, never mind sustainability, expedient politics was the order of the day and a quick fix mentality - and we had ultra high interest rates for another grossly extended period before defending the indefensible became too great and the Bank of England and HM Gov found out just how little 'sovereignty' they actually had alone and had to leave the ERM.....which in tory eyes became all Europe's fault!


im not about to start defending the tory policy of that time - i doubt even lamont and major, if truthful, would defend what happened. a good lesson to learn for economics students and, of course, future governments!



Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

You try owning property with a mortgage and experience a Bank of England base rate (which mean lower than the commercial rates) of 10%+ and tell me all about how using interest rates as the sole means of regulating the economy is a great thing.


yet this is still the main means of controlling the economy now - so with interest rates being pretty low at the moment, are you happy with this or would you prefer to see some other method of controlling the economy. certainly its working at the moment.



Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Also they have been dead set against everything this Labour gov has done since 1997, so no, I don't give them any credit.


well, you have to give them some credit, after all - theyve taught labour a lot about what not to do......! but i just think that it wouldnt have mattered who was in charge over the last few years considering the general healthiness of the world economy - i dont think anyone could do too bad a job....but yes i think the economy has been labours biggest success in their time in charge.



Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Not so.
You have to be only talking about band e and above to make that claim stick.
For most people's housing (band a - d) Labour councils do well in comparison to the tory councils.


well take for example, cardiff. over the last few years, the average council tax rise has been between 11-13%. This year, for the first time we have LD run council. the rise this year is predicted to be 5-6%. Its too early to see how its spent, of course, but I doubt we'll see things getting worse.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- It's certainly not heaven on earth but I do not believe that anyone can now seriously doubt the improvements in the public services but whether your local authority is making the most of the much improved central gov funding settlements they have been given in recent years isanother matter - and possibly indicative of the parlous state they were on not so long ago.


i would argue that we're not seeing improvements in the correct areas. Labour's policy with public services has just been to throw money at it - without committing themselves to the reform which is clearly needed. And i dont see a huge amount of things improving in the areas i know - certainly not relative to the rises in council tax.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 07:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by gareth_24
(which, I believe is the age that you start becoming a "statistic" on the unemployment figures - BUT i stand to be corrected here as im not 100% sure).


- Yes excluding the under 18's was a 1990's tory 'adjustment' to the benefit rules.


i was thinking more along the lines of reinforcing the watershed much more strictly, moving the watershed to a later time, doing much more to control what type of console games kids are getting hold of, songs with explicit lyrics being played only after a certain hour on radio, etc.


- What would you say to the howls of 'nanny state' blah blah blah you would encounter with this policy?

......and as for attempting to enforce it!


the idea of "parenting classes" sounds like a joke. if you care enough to be a good parent - generally you will be.


- Yet our papers are full of stories of people who say they were given no help and that that would have been of huge benefit to them, why is this a joke?

I have yet to meet the parent who didn't want to be a better parent......it's not like no-one can ever improve themselves in this is it?


nope, never heard of it sorry! but ive only ever heard this idea mentioned once by the tories, about 2 or 3 years ago - and never heard about it since.


Like I said they've been retreading this for decades.
Try this -

"The 'Short Sharp Shock' introduced by William Whitelaw in the 1980's was in fact not a new idea at all, the BBC did an hour-long programme on it in 1965. The 'Incentive and Earned Privleges Scheme' introduced in prisons in 1996, was called the 'Stage System' when it was introduced in 1948, and according to Hobhouse & Brockway in their 1922 penal epic "English Prisons Today", incentives were first used as a method of encouraging co-operation by prisoners in 1916.'

" Trawling through the BBC Archive I discovered that a recurring attitude towards youth crime has been the entrenched belief that being 'sent away' to a penal institution will, somehow, deter the criminal - despite a catalogue of evidence that it will do entirely the opposite. The criminal, young or otherwise, is not deterred by the prospect of harsh sentences or austere conditions, for the simple reason that when he goes out to commit crime, he doesn't believe he will be caught."

web1.pipemedia.net...


now i KNOW this was implemeted during the Major years! Theres talk of Labour reversing this policy now, am i right? this actually came up in a class discussion about 3 months ago so its relatively fresh in my mind.


- I believe so. On the other hand they may just send in inspectors with the power to scrap contrats and recover public money if the contractors underperform badly enough.


couldve sworn that "this monetarism BS" came out of the government of the 70's - but am sadly lacking in facts here - so if you think youre right you probably are!!!


- You could interpret the policies forced on Dennis Healey following the visit to the IMF as the very start of the implementation of right-wing economics into the UK.

Sadly whilst the story of "Labour having to go ' cap in hand' to the IMF for substantial loans" is fairly well known what is much less well known is that these loans turned out to be unnecessary.

(Economics data can be severely time-lagged and it turned out that when the full data was available the IMF was not actually needed to 'bail the UK's Labour gov out' at all.
Mind you it didn't stop the whole episode crucifying Labour's economic credibility for years though.)


wow, youre memory is a whole lot better than mine - i studied it about 7 years ago


- Like more than a few I was interested in the idea, at the time a lot was being made of how it was all supposed to have 'worked' in Chile.

(not that anyone was too fast in pointing out just how poor a comparison Chile was to anywhere without a military junta. But, for me back then, they were more innocent, more accepting and less critical times. I learnt, eventually.)


yet this is still the main means of controlling the economy now - so with interest rates being pretty low at the moment, are you happy with this or would you prefer to see some other method of controlling the economy. certainly its working at the moment.


- I don't think it is quite accurate to say interest rates are the sole method of economic control these days. Certainly fiscal policy has returned to the fray (the dreaded 'tax' word).


i just think that it wouldnt have mattered who was in charge over the last few years considering the general healthiness of the world economy - i dont think anyone could do too bad a job....but yes i think the economy has been labours biggest success in their time in charge.


- Agreed, but I also think these periods of stability don't just happen on their own.

......and the guys who were such disasters at it before (especially as more than a few of them are exactly the same people as before) don't fill me with confidence now.


well take for example, cardiff. over the last few years, the average council tax rise has been between 11-13%.


- I'm not saying the CT hasn't risen (of course) but that under both colours of gov they have demonstrated a tendancy to love to save in Local Auth funding so they can look good with Central gov funding.

But it remains a matter of fact that Labour have been more generous in allocating LA funds compared (once the initial 2yrs and their very tight budgets are discounted).


This year, for the first time we have LD run council. the rise this year is predicted to be 5-6%. Its too early to see how its spent, of course, but I doubt we'll see things getting worse.


- That is fair comment. How the allocated budget is prioritised locally is such a major part of this.

....along with debt overhang, contractual committments etc etc it's a hell of a complicated thing.


i would argue that we're not seeing improvements in the correct areas. Labour's policy with public services has just been to throw money at it - without committing themselves to the reform which is clearly needed.


- Have you been to a hospital lately gareth? I have. In the last 4yrs I've been to 4 big ones in my local and everyone of them has major brand new wings.
In my town one brand new school has opened, two schools have had large scale new buildings and a college has expanded hugely.
I don't call that nothing nor throwing money needlessly around.

As for reform? Surely you are aware of the restructuring of the public services that is continually being argued about?!


And i dont see a huge amount of things improving in the areas i know - certainly not relative to the rises in council tax.


- I don't know, just lately we have had a major effort made in relation to recycling, we've had some new LA run facilities (decent clean and usable manned public loos, whey hey!).
There's nothing 'glamourous' about it but I can't say I see no local improvement whatsoever.



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