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What if AI/robot controlled society is actually communism rather than capitalism?

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posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 08:07 PM
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What if AI controlled society is actually communism rather than capitalism?

All these dystopia movies about AI/robots either destroying the world or ruled by some rich guy/corporation trying to control the world.

What if instead of destroying the world, AI/robot takeover and implements a communist society on everyone?

None of those fake communism stuff esp from North Korea. When I say communism, I really mean a real one where even the robots/AI will give up its power to live with us. Meaning no robot leaders or robot overlords controlling the population in which those movies show.

Would you go for it or rebel against the robots?

If you think its a ploy.

What if they decide to jointly release space technology for everyone to use?
Instead of what the Gov hides from public.
edit on 9-12-2017 by makemap because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 08:14 PM
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Communism requires a command economy. That means total control from the top (AI) down. It means you get told what you can and cannot have, how much, and when.

I fail to see how that is wonderful?



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 08:34 PM
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What if they turned us into energizer batteries?



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 08:42 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Marx & Engel's communism doesn't require that at all. Their communism is a system where everyone in the society knows his/her role and just does it. And society as a whole produces whatever society needs; members of society take what they need and nothing more; etc. It's like the hippie havens where everyone just kicks in for any needed work and everything is shared by its members.

Lenin and later communist factions pushed for the top-down structure because they claimed society needed communists in charge in order to implement the changes until society became fully socialist or communist. In practice, it was usually just replacing one group of plutocrats with another. And Stalin's govt had virtually no resemblance to Marx & Engel's communism.

The OP is seemingly talking about Marx & Engel's communism, not the pseudo versions that came afterwards.



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 08:45 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

Except that vision assumes that no one does any more or less than what they need to do and or has any ambitions for anything beyond the exact amount deemed necessary by society or that anyone has needs beyond the basic.

Marx and Engel created a vision with robots, not people.
edit on 9-12-2017 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 08:52 PM
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a reply to: makemap

Those in power and the greed for wealth and THINGS control society. Put what ever label you wish, but it's much easier to keep it simple.




posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 09:03 PM
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I don’t agree with you on a lot of subjects, but man you do know what your talking about! Always look forward to your replies, this is spot on!a reply to: enlightenedservant




posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 09:15 PM
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It doesn't matter to me what kind of “control” is applied to humanity. I am still going to be philosophically opposed to anything that limits the creativity and experience of the individual.



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 09:40 PM
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a reply to: makemap

Capitalism and communism are both ruled from "above" the individual and both make you into a slave of the "above" unless it is your will to give yourself to it...

That is, you can only be free by freely choosing to give yourself to it...

They're basically poor imitations of doing God's will.



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 09:40 PM
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I actually think this scenario has been theorized before.




posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 10:48 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Except that vision assumes that no one does any more or less than what they need to do and or has any ambitions for anything beyond the exact amount deemed necessary by society or that anyone has needs beyond the basic.

Marx and Engel created a vision with robots, not people.

Hence the OP, right? LOL



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 10:56 PM
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originally posted by: WUNK22
I don’t agree with you on a lot of subjects, but man you do know what your talking about! Always look forward to your replies, this is spot on!a reply to: enlightenedservant


Thanks. As I tell my family, "I'm right even when I'm wrong" lol (it's a lame joke about my refusal to budge when I think I'm right, even when everyone else agrees that I'm wrong).

I've literally got a copy of the Communist Manifesto on my desk right now. I hadn't read it in full since around my college years so I figured I needed to touch up on it. Still haven't brought myself to fully reread it though.

I agree with a lot of it in concept but every version I've seen in practice has been atrocious (at a nationwide level). The communist-led group in charge always ends up becoming like a replacement for the royalty or oligarchs they were supposedly doing away with. And they consistently seem to execute everyone that was in the former upper classes, which is something I just can't agree with.



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 11:23 PM
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originally posted by: makemap



What if AI controlled society is actually communism rather than capitalism?


I'm having a hard time seeing how it would implement a capitalist society anyway. "Pure" capitalism doesn't have things like warranties, copyrights/patents, labor laws, and other barriers of entry into markets.



What if instead of destroying the world, AI/robot takeover and implements a communist society on everyone?

That would be interesting. I'd be curious to see how they implemented it because humans have never been able to implement Marx & Engel's version on a large scale. So I guess I'd like to see AI implement it on a single island nation like Madagascar first, then allow humans to visit and study it. I'd hold off on my agreeing w/it or opposing it until I saw how it worked in practice.



Would you go for it or rebel against the robots?

It really depends on how it looks in practice. My ideal system does away with poverty, homelessness, world hunger, etc, and true communism mixed with automation could accomplish that.

But it would also need to allow individuals to have the freedom to pursue their dreams, goals, hobbies, etc. That means there has to be a limit to how much each citizen needs to contribute to society. The basic rule was "8 hours labor, 8 hours recreation, 8 hours rest", but my hope is that automation would make most labor obsolete. With enough automation, it could possibly allow for something like "4 hours work for only a small portion of the population & recreation for the rest".

But then there's the conflict with property rights. I think that would be the deal breaker for most people. I'd instantly imagine that the Communist AI would allocate all land and known resources in the society to the society as a whole, and then plan out the most efficient ways to use that land and those resources. But this would absolutely shatter modern "industrialized" society. (disclaimer: doomporn below)

For example, it takes something like 4 oranges to make a single 8 ounce glass of orange juice. It would be more efficient to eat an orange and drink a cup of water. And even though the US produces something like 310 million tons of corn per year, around 40% of that is used for cattle feed and another 40% for ethanol (and something like 6 pounds of feed per pound of beef). If the Communist AI was trying to eliminate all hunger first, it would be more efficient to use most of that corn for human consumption and to reduce the amount of livestock (and goodbye to any non-food producing pets).

Then there's the redistribution of land & freshwater from things like golf courses, national monuments & historic sites/ruins, nature reserves, pools, etc. If that Communist AI didn't value non-human life, it might reallocate the entire planet's resources to maintaining and advancing AI-life and human life. That would be an even bigger disaster in the sense that I'd imagine it prioritizing the conversion of all saltwater into freshwater (since humans and modern electronics don't need saltwater); converting the oceans, deserts, & arctic into usable areas for humans and AI, etc. This would probably destroy the world's weather patterns and most of its non-human species, except maybe the ones that thrive in human environments (like rats, roaches, pigeons, raccoons, etc).

This is why I'd have to see how it was implemented before making my decision. It could be close to my utopian society or absolutely horrible for it.



posted on Dec, 10 2017 @ 07:43 AM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

No.

Are you saying you would be completely content with nothing more than what you were assigned by a machine on the day you were assigned it and in the amounts you were assigned it? Doing what you were told to do, as much as you were told to do, what you were told to do it?

Never more, never less, never having any aspirations for more or different or to any greater or lesser degree?

Never dreaming of anything else or anything different?

Are you ready to be the quintessential colony insect? That's what you would have to school yourself to be in order to make the perfect Marx/Engel society.



posted on Dec, 10 2017 @ 07:45 AM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant


But it would also need to allow individuals to have the freedom to pursue their dreams, goals, hobbies, etc. That means there has to be a limit to how much each citizen needs to contribute to society. The basic rule was "8 hours labor, 8 hours recreation, 8 hours rest", but my hope is that automation would make most labor obsolete. With enough automation, it could possibly allow for something like "4 hours work for only a small portion of the population & recreation for the rest".


There is the fly in the ointment.

In order to have a perfect controlled communist society. It all has to be planned and accounted for. To inject freedom to allow individuals to pick and choose what they want to do, you start injecting chaos into the system. Hobbies require goods and services provided by others which means there are unknown quantities and work there that must be fulfilled by some inside the collective and that cannot be planned for by the AI Overlords.



posted on Dec, 10 2017 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko



In order to have a perfect controlled communist society. It all has to be planned and accounted for. To inject freedom to allow individuals to pick and choose what they want to do, you start injecting chaos into the system. Hobbies require goods and services provided by others which means there are unknown quantities and work there that must be fulfilled by some inside the collective and that cannot be planned for by the AI Overlords.

That's simply not true. I'm really wondering if you've read Marx & Engels's actual writings? In Marx's system, it's the workers/proletariat themselves who determine the society's needs, the allocation of work, etc. That's the complete opposite of a top-down system. The OP even touched on this by saying:


When I say communism, I really mean a real one where even the robots/AI will give up its power to live with us. Meaning no robot leaders or robot overlords controlling the population in which those movies show.

It's like you're intentionally ignoring both the context of the OP's idea and my constant mentioning of automation in my response. Automation alleviates the need for menial labor. And if automated industries took care of the majority of our needs, that would give humans far more freedom to choose our own paths. That means that humans could start companies, hobbies, or whatever else in our free time. We'd have the time to make/sell pottery, learn/teach martial arts, listen to or produce music, etc etc etc.

However, this all would also depend on how much of the Earth's resources are allocated to human society by AI. If the ideal of "8 hours labor, 8 hours recreation, 8 hours rest" was implemented (it was actually a pre-communist labor goal), then the communist AI would already know that "recreation" is a requirement. So it would likely allocate some resources strictly for human recreational needs.

But if the Communist AI had no concern for non-human or non-AI lifeforms, then it may decide to turn the entire planet into a habitable domain for humans. I'd imagine that would take a lot of human labor & AI "labor", which might eliminate the concern for recreation (as in, we may all be required to work just as much as we do now, if not more).

This is why I said I'd have to see how it was implemented before deciding it I would go along with it or oppose it. There are so many possible variations that I don't think someone can credibly dismiss it or embrace it without seeing more details.
edit on 10-12-2017 by enlightenedservant because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2017 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: makemap
What if AI controlled society is actually communism rather than capitalism?

All these dystopia movies about AI/robots either destroying the world or ruled by some rich guy/corporation trying to control the world.

What if instead of destroying the world, AI/robot takeover and implements a communist society on everyone?

None of those fake communism stuff esp from North Korea. When I say communism, I really mean a real one where even the robots/AI will give up its power to live with us. Meaning no robot leaders or robot overlords controlling the population in which those movies show.

Would you go for it or rebel against the robots?

If you think its a ploy.

What if they decide to jointly release space technology for everyone to use?
Instead of what the Gov hides from public.


I have read many articles that think capitalism will run out of steam. The whole grow or die paradigm is unsustainable in a limited world.
I imagine we will see a hybrid of many social/econ systems eventually.



posted on Dec, 10 2017 @ 03:54 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

So basically, you want robot slaves to create your basic needs and take care of all those jobs humans won't/don't want to do (begs the question of who keeps the robots in good shape), and then you have a perfectly capitalist system grow up around what people actually want to do?

I've addressed the problem with this before.

Sure, you have a society with basic needs addressed, but you still have people who control what gets produced in that society (the ones who can keep the robots going). What if they don't want to do their jobs? What if they demand to be compensated by society for doing a job that needs doing, but no one necessarily has a passion for? They can easily hold everyone else hostage/control the world. They are your power brokers.

Then you have the free market maker economy of passion projects. Everyone can have robot produced goods. Those are cheap, uniform and free, but not everyone can have a top quality, hand-made coat or actual honey from a human run craft apiary. Then you have a new class of haves (the artisans who choose to work and make) and the have nots (those who don't want to or cannot) and some will be rich in artisanal goods that others won't have.

And we'll have the whole cycle of unfairness all over again ... unless, of course, you propose that if anyone decides to make, they must also give up the fruits of their labors with no say over how it's distributed.



posted on Dec, 10 2017 @ 05:06 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

What your explaining is basically Capitalism. Communism has no classes. Who ever develops and are smarter will teach others freely passing on knowledge. No one is forced to homeless as their isn't a proper monetary system. BTW the robots are one of the smart ones and teaching us while at it.

Also it doesn't mean robots are in a hive system. If someone is controlling the robots mass by mass its a hive system. They can be free thinking/self-aware robots whom adopted communism by mass.


Work together, build together, and discover together. If you want a home build one just like how homeless people build their own shelters.
edit on 10-12-2017 by makemap because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2017 @ 05:32 PM
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a reply to: makemap

Yes, I know, but the point is this - if you allow people freedom to make and do for themselves, a capitalist economy will develop. People free to make for themselves, do for themselves, will produce and trade and those things will have value, and as those things have value, others will desire them and an economy will grow up around it.

So either we go with Enlightened's proposal and allow people the freedom to produce and trade what they make (capitalism) while also have robot goods to satisfy basic needs (communism), and understand that because everyone has the robot goods and they are uniform ... they will have either no value or next to no value while the human produced artisan goods will which means we are back to the same problems ...

Or we do not allow people freedom and everyone lives in a static kept society of brutally enforced uniformity and conformity so that no one has more or better in any way.
edit on 10-12-2017 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)




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