American Culture under attack: Harvard dis-embowls Fraterities and Sororities.

a reply to: luthier

See this is what I was asking about above!

What mass destruction and self harm (though i would argue if its SELF harm - depending on what you mean by that- then what business is it of anyone else) have they perpetrated and not been held accountable for?

Because that might be a valid point of discussion

a reply to: Indrasweb

After reading your post, I immediately thought about Gold's gym.. they have a room ONLY FOR WOMEN.

I may be comparing apples to oranges here a bit, but is in our culture to separate and group up in certain times and places.

I wonder if the school officials thought about by enforcing this rule, they are doing the same in which they are trying to prevent to an extent.

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what do the coaches and players of the sports have to say about this??? Will they stand for it and rebel?
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originally posted by: Indrasweb
a reply to: luthier

See this is what I was asking about above!

What mass destruction and self harm (though i would argue if its SELF harm - depending on what you mean by that- then what business is it of anyone else) have they perpetrated and not been held accountable for?

Because that might be a valid point of discussion

Since the frats and sororities are full of donors and powerful networks of elite they have let things go for a long time. Now that students are getting hospitalized and deaths are occurring from the pledging process (usually under age massive binge drinking and drug use) they can't hide the situation any more. All the rufi and rape situations seem to have not been enough but the straw has broken the camels back. Our time at sec schools were the worst. The huge games really bring out the worst. In the parents as well. I have seen parents as loaded as their kids at college football games.

Frats and sorrieties should just go. The captains issue and sports is a bit much. But the break up of Greek life is fine by me. I would never let my kids join one or they would be paying for school on their own.

a reply to: luthier

So it is excessive drinking/drug use and the associated fallout that is the issue here?

Unfortunately, alcohol and drug abuse is extremely commonplace in society now, particularly with younger people of college/university age.

It has become both mainstream and acceptable. It is common now that people are open about their drug use for example.

It is 'normal' now to go out with the specific intent of getting "as wasted as possible". The motivation is not to have a good time but to get incredibly out of it. It is seen as a badge of honour, and the greater the excess the more there is to be boastful about.

I don't believe that fraternities and sororitories are the issue. I believe it is a cultural issue.
We do not have fraternities and sororitories here in the UK but we still most definitely have a serious issue with alcohol and drug abuse, particularly with that age group.

I don't think getting rid of these organisations will eliminate the issues you're describing. It would require a shift in culture and a change of perception in regards to alcohol and drug abuse.

a reply to: SR1TX

Your making sense here, this means your in the wrong room.

This is “Unfounded Hystericalness 301”.

originally posted by: Indrasweb
a reply to: luthier

So it is excessive drinking/drug use and the associated fallout that is the issue here?

Unfortunately, alcohol and drug abuse is extremely commonplace in society now, particularly with younger people of college/university age.

It has become both mainstream and acceptable. It is common now that people are open about their drug use for example.

It is 'normal' now to go out with the specific intent of getting "as wasted as possible". The motivation is not to have a good time but to get incredibly out of it. It is seen as a badge of honour, and the greater the excess the more there is to be boastful about.

I don't believe that fraternities and sororitories are the issue. I believe it is a cultural issue.
We do not have fraternities and sororitories here in the UK but we still most definitely have a serious issue with alcohol and drug abuse, particularly with that age group.

I don't think getting rid of these organisations will eliminate the issues you're describing. It would require a shift in culture and a change of perception in regards to alcohol and drug abuse.

I think you possibly aren't familiar with the pledging process.

For instance this year at the university my wife was doing a study there were 12 boys locked in basement naked, no bathroom, 3 days only alcohol to drink. The campus police arrived just in time for two of the kids. The place was covered with feces, urine and vomit and the body cam footage made administrators nearly throw up themselves.

a reply to: luthier

Wow.

Yeah, I wasn't aware of the 'pledging process'.

I see where you're coming from in that regard. That is somewhat ridiculous if true.

Having said that, I reckon I saw equally ridiculous # in the army, and most of them are supposedly grown men...

ETA: That being said, wouldn't it make more sense to tackle the culture of stupidity and excess surrounding these groups as opposed to attacking the groups as a whole?

a reply to: Indrasweb

Here is a little info..

en.m.wikipedia.org...

They are doing exactly that. I don't think you understand the power structure that has to be weakened force. Frats are full of powerful elite many many politicians. So it need to be weakened to change the culture or it just keeps getting swept under the carpet.

But yes your correct. Unfortunately the parents are donors and creates a problem for the universities funding.

Blah, blah, blah, racists. Blah, blah sexist. Blah, blah, blah non-inclusive etc etc. More of the same vapid sh1t from from the deranged leftards. Just f#€k off why don't you.

creeping effort on a few different fronts to dis-mantle Certain parts of the very fabric of American culture

What are you so worried about? It's Harvard. Or rather, Haaavaad. It's nothing. I went there. Harvard=America. Harvard is an effete bunch of idealists with a few dissenters thrown in for good measure. It's a harmless place mostly, except many people like you seem to take it too seriously.

Frat boys and their strumpet sisters will still be encouraged and celebrated in a great many places.

So don't hide your paddles yet, guys.

My big sister got her law degree there,other then that who cares,just a glorified college

Eh, I went to a very Greek undergrad school. The "culture" is the most broey, superficial thing ever. Not sure it's any kind of American culture to weep over.

a reply to: scraedtosleep

Sorry, didn't see the edit.

And I'm not offended. Just wanted to clarify that I can speak for myself. As can other members.

TheRedneck

a reply to: luthier

Judging by the page you posted it does seem like there's been an increase in the number of 'hazing' related deaths in the last 20 years.

Why is that I wonder? What's changed since the turn of the century? If it's not cultural then what has driven the increase in frequency of these deaths?

Is the increase in these deaths disproportionate to the number of deaths related to drugs and alcohol in wider society? Is it specifically a frat/rich people issue or a wider social issue?

a reply to: Indrasweb

The issue has been studied and compiled over the last 20 years also in regards to sexual assaults.

The issue is the culture for sure. Not arguing that.

But allowing an institution to use formulaic hazing, get caught and not banned is also pretty rediculous. How many violations of a serious nature before they should be more deligently punished?

a reply to: luthier

A lot of the pledging process has gotten out of control. Originally, it was a way for someone to prove their worth to the fraternity by enduring physical hardship. That's not historically unusual; many cultures have had similar 'coming of age' rituals in the past. What is unusual is that the modern pledging process has gotten over the top.

And of course, you still have the club mentality. That's going to make for some mischief.

But I really don't think simply opening a fraternity up to coeds is going about solving those problems the right way. It's a little like forcing a marriage equivalency... the coeds are supposed to keep the guys in line. But what is missing here is the love angle. The frat brothers are going to be interested in what frat boys are always interested in, not the affection and approval of a single girl. So what you're going to get is more of the same thing, combined with a lot of student pregnancy.

Just another PC BS social justice policy that wasn't thought out completely. It'll fail and we'll all wonder what went wrong.

TheRedneck

If your idea of 'culture' is a fraternity, then.... Ye gods.

So they are discouraging the purchasing of a "Friends Club Pass" for students?

I never understood frats. I'd rather pick my friends that join a club that gives me access to "friends".

a reply to: TheRedneck

I agree with you and got off topic. However, the university experimenting with its cultural structure is also not a horrible thing. Sure seems dumb to some but so do ideas vice versa. Hopefully we stay a country where some schools are different from one another, states as well. The forced national acceptance I do have a problem with. But Harvard is in Boston not Alabama.

a reply to: luthier

Yeah, that seems like a reasonable position to take.
It sure seems like the issue needs addressing. I'm just not convinced this approach is going to be very effective.

In fact, I think Redneck made the point above me, much better than i.