It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Senate passes tax reform bill

page: 20
22
<< 17  18  19    21 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 10:32 AM
link   

originally posted by: TheRedneck
When you showed me you could not handle simple calculations, yet called yourself an engineer, that sealed the deal for me. You're either a liar or the most incompetent example of an 'engineer' imaginable.


Projecting much? You're the one who assumed minimum wage would remain static from now until the end of time. You're the one who assumed income stops at retirement, despite spending the rest of this thread arguing otherwise. Good engineers don't make bad assumptions like that.




posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 10:50 AM
link   
a reply to: Aazadan


Good engineers don't make bad assumptions like that.

How would you know?

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 12:41 PM
link   

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: nwtrucker

But the average citizen does NOT benefit, do they? You still have people living in tent cities in America. You still have hard working people living in sub standard accommodations, no matter how many hours they pull to make the rent. You still have HUMAN BEINGS living in conditions you would not force a dog into.

As to the unemployment rate, its pretty healthy right now. The problem that our government are having, is trying to keep up with the narrative that if you have nothing, its because you did not work hard enough. Unemployment here is better than in other major European countries, like France for example, and is actually very close to the same rate as the States currently. The problem is not a lack of jobs. Its a lack of money in the system being used by the people who uphold it from its foundations.

The US and the UK populations are having a similar problem right now, because hard working people are getting paid next door to nothing, for long hours and arduous work, while company profits and pay to executive types who have not done an honest days work in decades, goes through the roof. You need to understand something. If a company is in good profit, but has any employee on a wage which does not pay his rent, his bills, feed his family, then that company is artificially profitable. The rules are simple. If you cannot afford to pay everyone working for you, enough that they can live off it, debt free, and make savings for their future, then your company is in the wrong, and so are its executives, because they are not employing people, but exploiting them. When a company has billion dollar profits, top executives chauffeur driven in limos, flown from rooftop to rooftop in corporate choppers, but is not providing a living to all its employees, those profits are not profits, they are ill gotten gains.

There are only two ways about it, nwtrucker.

Either companies pay their every employee, from the lowest to the highest, a wage which accommodates their needs, or they must pay more taxes, so that the underpaid amongst the workforce, can be given a safety net, which prevents the skinflintery of the company for which they work, forcing them into poverty and misery. Now, most people who complain about tax rates, suggest that companies should pay their staff properly, instead of requiring them to apply for assistance of some kind, costing the taxpayer money in subsidy in all but name. In that much, I agree. Companies SHOULD take a profit hit, in order to correctly pay their employees, rather than forcing them into the clutches of the government.

But they do not. That is the bottom line. Someone has to pay these people. They MUST be fed, their rent MUST be covered, their families WILL be nourished, and the only thing which dictates whether that happens the right way, or the wrong way, is the will of people to ignore injustice.


Your whole post virtually without exception is hyperbole, flat out ass-backwards...approaching outright lies. "Someone has to pay these people'??? They must be fed? their rent must be paid? No they don't. Not at all. Nothing has to be paid. No one has to be fed. That's pure choice.

Virtually everyone on ATS benefits. Including you.

Right way or wrong way? You missed one...not at all. No 'must'. None. Reality. No one is owed anything. Nothing is free. It's a truth, no matter how hard it's ignored, that will not go away.

Choice vs enforcement. Social consciousness vs Socialism. Freedom vs fascism. All incrementally changing.

That's why we kept our guns.



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 12:51 PM
link   

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: nwtrucker

I remember how life got worse for my husband and I in the late 80’s. Everything started increasing for us but wages. I take comfort that when those white rural evangelicals figure out they were lied to, republicans can’t blame democrats this time.


Whatever got worse for you in the eighties, likely you and your husband hold responsibility for it, as well as blaming others for ones ills.
edit on 4-12-2017 by nwtrucker because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 12:53 PM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

I agree.

How in holy h@ll did things get worse for anybody in the 80's!? Man! You had to have made some pretty crappy decisions to have not soared upward back then.



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 01:20 PM
link   
I remember the 80s. I lost my job due to a plant close-down. I found a better one. I had wonderful working conditions, because the only thing I needed to do to find a job was walk outside and yell "I want a job!"

I started my business in the 80s... $500 and some tools I already owned, and it became a good income source for ten years. And I was having to bat work away because I couldn't keep up!

How anyone could have failed in the 80s, with the exception of bad health or a catastrophe like that, is beyond me.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 03:30 PM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

We just worked and moved to find construction jobs. Hard work they said back then got you ahead. Married for 39 years, raised the kids. But after Reagan it was as like a sinkhole started swallowing the working class. Especially medical.



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 03:47 PM
link   

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: nwtrucker

We just worked and moved to find construction jobs. Hard work they said back then got you ahead. Married for 39 years, raised the kids. But after Reagan it was as like a sinkhole started swallowing the working class. Especially medical.


Really? What changed under Reagan with medical?? Nothing. Hard work? Yes. It helps to read the leaves, however. Not getting anywhere? Then reevaluate. Change the job into one that's going somewhere. Say the high tech industry. Lord know one shouldn't study different subjects and get motivated.

I recall a point raised when old Henry Ford came out with the model T. (They promoted it as a way of cleaning up pollution!)

Horse waste all over the big eastern cities, I suppose. That slowly wiped out the harness and Carriage Industry. The smart ones learnt about cars. manufacturing, repair, sales, supporting industries, the list goes on. Those that bewailed in the dying industries and did nothing but look for more work in the same suffered. Those that got out of 'auto-pilot' and did something about it did better.

I'm not being unsympathetic here. I wish you well...really. I did similar as you and your husband. I made my bed and hold no political view as responsible for my condition whatsoever. My bed. I made it.

I do pass my errors and their lessons to my daughter and grandchildren. Whether they fully get it or not is on them. Their call. As it was yours and as it was mine.

In most cases, not all, we make our own beds. I did not raise a victim in my daughter or the grand kids.

I am not a 'victim' and neither are you. JMO, though.
edit on 4-12-2017 by nwtrucker because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 03:58 PM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

I speak of life experiences, not victim hood. My experience with Reagan’s and Bush’s tax cuts did nothing to improve my life. I’m old and retired now. I believe with all my heart, the republicans hate laborers. Sure they have all respect for bankers, investors, and each other. But the rest of us are just to fight their wars and slaves.



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 04:10 PM
link   

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: nwtrucker

I speak of life experiences, not victim hood. My experience with Reagan’s and Bush’s tax cuts did nothing to improve my life. I’m old and retired now. I believe with all my heart, the republicans hate laborers. Sure they have all respect for bankers, investors, and each other. But the rest of us are just to fight their wars and slaves.


I'm not fond of the Republicans at this point either. Different reasons, however.

The Dems have had control of our gov't policies the majority of our lives.

For me I don't really care about dwelling in the blame game for how and why we ended up where we are. I am interested in the future for my daughter and the grans kids. We have done better in the past and plenty of jobs seems a fundamental that is gone. (That would include construction, by the way.)

I believe if there's any chance for even a short burst back towards that era, it lies with Trump. Not either political party.



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 04:17 PM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

He’s just the president. The people who write laws will control our children’s lives. They try very hard to hide behind the president.



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 04:32 PM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker


I believe if there's any chance for even a short burst back towards that era, it lies with Trump. Not either political party.

My sentiments exactly. Right now, I trust Mitch McConnell about as far as I can throw him. I despised Li'l George by the time he was on his way out. John McCain is a joke. I lobbied to get rid of Bob Bentley here as governor... a Republican. Mitt Romney needs to just shut his trap. And there are plenty of others... even Richard Shelby just made me have second thoughts about him needing to stay in place. And thus far I am very disappointed in Jeff Sessions... I only hope he proves me wrong before all is said and done.

On the other hand, I can't name many Democrats that should be allowed to speak before they raise their IQ into the positive numbers.

This political party bantering is what causes all the angst, and all the despair. The moment someone mentions how bad the Democrats are, or how evil the Republicans are, or links to a political hack web site, the whole conversation goes south. Nothing happens because the Democrats are in charge, or because the Republicans are in charge. Things change based on who is in charge, not what party they belong to. That's just an excuse for weak-minded people who are too lazy to think on their own.

Hillary didn't lose because she was a Democrat... she lost because people were tired of her accusatory tones and the corruption she always seems to be at the heart of. Trump didn't win because he was a Republican; he won because he promised to try something new to fix the suffering that was going on. Roy Moore won't win because he's a Republican... he'll win because he is an upstanding, honest man who has been falsely accused.

Richard Shelby, up until he made his comments about Moore, was probably the most secure person in the Congress of being re-elected. But he was once a Democrat. He was initially elected as a Democrat, and switched parties because the people were tired of the Democrats being in charge and not keeping their promises. George Wallace held the Alabama Governor's Mansion for decades as a Democrat... even with the tide of history directly against him.

Yet, so many seem to try and boil everything down to "Democrats crazy" or "Republicans evil."

In the end, it's a constant fight to hold all of the politicians accountable and seek out good people instead of good parties... because there are a few of the former, but the latter have not existed in my lifetime.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 07:13 PM
link   

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: nwtrucker


I believe if there's any chance for even a short burst back towards that era, it lies with Trump. Not either political party.

My sentiments exactly. Right now, I trust Mitch McConnell about as far as I can throw him. I despised Li'l George by the time he was on his way out. John McCain is a joke. I lobbied to get rid of Bob Bentley here as governor... a Republican. Mitt Romney needs to just shut his trap. And there are plenty of others... even Richard Shelby just made me have second thoughts about him needing to stay in place. And thus far I am very disappointed in Jeff Sessions... I only hope he proves me wrong before all is said and done.

On the other hand, I can't name many Democrats that should be allowed to speak before they raise their IQ into the positive numbers.

This political party bantering is what causes all the angst, and all the despair. The moment someone mentions how bad the Democrats are, or how evil the Republicans are, or links to a political hack web site, the whole conversation goes south. Nothing happens because the Democrats are in charge, or because the Republicans are in charge. Things change based on who is in charge, not what party they belong to. That's just an excuse for weak-minded people who are too lazy to think on their own.

Hillary didn't lose because she was a Democrat... she lost because people were tired of her accusatory tones and the corruption she always seems to be at the heart of. Trump didn't win because he was a Republican; he won because he promised to try something new to fix the suffering that was going on. Roy Moore won't win because he's a Republican... he'll win because he is an upstanding, honest man who has been falsely accused.

Richard Shelby, up until he made his comments about Moore, was probably the most secure person in the Congress of being re-elected. But he was once a Democrat. He was initially elected as a Democrat, and switched parties because the people were tired of the Democrats being in charge and not keeping their promises. George Wallace held the Alabama Governor's Mansion for decades as a Democrat... even with the tide of history directly against him.

Yet, so many seem to try and boil everything down to "Democrats crazy" or "Republicans evil."

In the end, it's a constant fight to hold all of the politicians accountable and seek out good people instead of good parties... because there are a few of the former, but the latter have not existed in my lifetime.

TheRedneck


The 'trump cards' that Trump holds is the Dems fear the end of their party, at least on a national level. and the Republicans fear the third party option, especially if they blow tax reform on top of the ACA debacle.

Sessions? I just don't know. He's massively increased prosecution of pedophile rings, very quickly indicted the idiot who was just found 'not guilty' in San Fran. At the least, a heavy flow of new blood into the Federal courts of Constitutionalists/ Conservatives....when they can find the odd one....

Seems the key is this tax reform. Pass it. Give 2018 for it to bite combined with continued improvement, economically, Trump could be in good shape for the mid-terms.

Here's hoping.



posted on Dec, 4 2017 @ 08:25 PM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

The FBI is supposed to run a tight ship, and maybe that's what Sessions is doing. I did notice how quickly he indicted the murderer, and that gives me hope. Around here, Sessions is known as a bulldog with gator teeth, a guy who doesn't care who you are if you're guilty. Maybe I expected too much too soon from him; the swamp is pretty deep.

Anyway, here's hoping Trump can hold the Republicans in line. He doesn't seem to be having any problem with the Democrats... all he has to do is tweet and they destroy themselves.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 6 2017 @ 08:39 AM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker

Your whole post virtually without exception is hyperbole, flat out ass-backwards...approaching outright lies.

Go ahead and give me some examples of one of my approaches to outright lies, and I will show you something that just does not fit with your beliefs... let me tell you a secret to life nwtrucker. Your beliefs are irrelevant next to any persons KNOWLEDGE. You believe trickle down economics functions perfectly well. Anyone who has ever researched the issue however, KNOWS that it doesn't, never did and never will. Knowledge beats mere belief into the ground with a ten pound lump hammer, every time.


"Someone has to pay these people'??? They must be fed? their rent must be paid? No they don't. Not at all. Nothing has to be paid. No one has to be fed. That's pure choice.

So, you assert, to be clear, that a person who works themselves half to death, on long hours, arduous labour, in poor working conditions, should not be reimbursed for their time in a manner which is useful to them in some fashion, that jobs should only pay if they meet some bizarre, social measure of worth, dictated by an amorphous body of persons who are accountable to no one? Are you suggesting therefore, that people who work jobs considered of low importance, should work while homeless, while under nourished and lacking the money to rectify either situation?

Either work must pay and those doing it must be capable of living from their work, or the system you want to live in, is by its very nature predatory and exploitative. Its very simple, so you cannot claim a lack of comprehension here. Please state with precision, exactly what you mean, when you say that people do not need to be paid, or have places to live, or food to eat. I have to ask, because what you wrote makes it seem as if you believe that people being exploited by the system to work for what amounts to nothing, is acceptable and entirely just in your estimation.


Virtually everyone on ATS benefits. Including you.

Really? Hows that? First of all, clueless individuals like to point out that the water over which I suspend my bottom, when about the business of a number two, is cleaner than the water drunk by more than half the world. I am in Britain, so you may well be right in that small, tiny detail. But there are people living in the United States right now who are still unable to use the drinking water in their towns, because the damned stuff is full of lead, and other muck besides, which is toxic to human life, damaging to child development, a situation which could, and should have been avoided, but wasn't because the communities being served by this sub par infrastructure, are not affluent.

Secondly, with regard to me personally, no, I do not benefit from living under the system I live under. The only people who benefit from living under the British government at this time, are the conservative donors who have paid the members of government to skew things away from the interests of the voting majority, and toward the minority of entitled, born to money bastards who sit pretty on inherited money, billions of pounds of it, none of which ends up "trickling down" to the streets and the people putting in the hard graft in this country.

If I was benefiting from the system, I would not be living with my mother despite being the director of a company. I would not be having to slash prices just to draw in work and custom, I would not be having to put off actually taking my driving test until I can afford to take it, or having to worry about the cost of a passport in the event that I need one for ID purposes in the future, things those who DO benefit from the system, do not consider worth worrying about. I crap my pants over every last penny I have to spend out, because there are too few of them available to do anything else than guard them preciously, in case they are the difference between going hungry, and getting fed. People who are benefiting from the systems they live under, do not worry about these things, because they are not forced, despite their inhuman work ethic and dedication to their jobs, into what amounts to abject bloody poverty! You can take your rose tinted glasses, and cram them, and your ignorance, where the sun does not shine.



Right way or wrong way? You missed one...not at all. No 'must'. None. Reality. No one is owed anything. Nothing is free. It's a truth, no matter how hard it's ignored, that will not go away.

Again, your beliefs in that regard mean nothing when faced with knowledge. Your country has not got an unemployment problem. It has an underpayment problem. People working real jobs, cannot pay their way properly without assistance, not because they did not put the hours in, but because they have not been paid properly for their time, not been given their times worth. Thats just a fact, its not something you can argue with me about, its not a debate point, its a reality, and as such, knocks your mere belief on the matter into a cocked hat. Your nearly religious approach to politics has no place in the modern world whatsoever. Reality denies its usefulness and betrays its total inability to deal with what is actually happening in households in your country.


Choice vs enforcement. Social consciousness vs Socialism. Freedom vs fascism. All incrementally changing.

That's why we kept our guns.


Is it hell. I would believe you about the reasons your people kept your guns, if your people had ever used them for what they are for in the modern era. You still have a mass surveillance state, you still have a military industrial complex which is more powerful than the government which is supposed to preside over it, you still have a government which refuses to engage with real societal problems at ground level, and you still refuse to use your guns to prevent any of these things, rendering the existence of the second amendment utterly pointless in all but the smallest and most local of ways. Your people do not use the second for its primary intended purpose, which is to over throw and curtail the power of government, whenever its activities do not match with the ideals held by the people, whenever it overreaches and performs in a tyrannical manner, which it has been doing for decades with narry a peep from any armed militia within it.

The hell with that. I agree with the second amendment, and I wish I had the same permission to be armed in my own nation. Things would get done, I can assure you. However, your nation wastes its right to possess and bear arms every day that its government is not being dismantled by main force, and you would damned well know it, if any of your personal responsibility prattle was worth a lump of fools gold.
edit on 6-12-2017 by TrueBrit because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2017 @ 10:23 AM
link   
a reply to: TrueBrit

An example? Sure. Your first paragraph is a perfect example.

The 'Trickle down economics' line was a jingoism created by the Dems in face of the failed Presidency of Carter. Faced with a double digit inflation rate and unemployment rate, the was little factual platform points the Dems could use in the face of the Reagan campaign.

So this tactic was employed.

The FACT is the economic system has never changed from pre-Reagan right up to the present. Capitalism with lip service to free enterprise. There is no socialist nations. None, zip, nada. All, to varying degree, employ the same system.

So only having to read your first paragraph to point out an obvious lie, I didn't bother reading the rest of the post.

We'll let the room temperature I.Q. types buy into it. The rest will yawn and take up say, knitting, as the more entertaining of the two.
edit on 6-12-2017 by nwtrucker because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2017 @ 11:00 AM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

The FACT is that ever since Reagan, the stagnation of wages has been a problem for the entire developed world, in a way that it just was not before his arrival on the economic scene, or the enactment of his frankly appalling policies on the economy he had control over. Also, the term trickle down economics has been in use since the Hoover administration, so I do not know where the hell you got your assumptions about the Carter through Reagan era, but they are not backed up by historical fact at all.

And as for your not reading the rest of the post, well bully for you. Way to keep yourself under the wool there, oh wise one. Thats exactly the behaviour of someone who is more dedicated to discourse than bashing the same, broken drum for the next decade, under the insane impression that the result will be any better for the future of your country, than it has been for its past.

[/sarcasm]

I am sure you think yourself noble for upholding all the best traditions of the most soulless, hate filled, entitled people in America, the captains of industry who flourish only when the workers have no rights and no freedoms, when they are over a barrel, unable to afford to move around to find work, instead forced to find whatever scraps are local to them, in whatever awful contract condition they may work under, if they are lucky enough to be contracted at all.

But there is no nobility in supporting an anti-human, tyrannical system which measures the worth of people and their time, incorrectly, which insists that a person who cannot pay their own way is not worth anyones time or effort, or deserving of dignity or respect, leave alone a place to sleep safely, food in their belly or any of the other basics of life. No nobility or decency exists within that mindset, because it, by its very nature is toxic, evil and without the slightest redeeming feature to it.

You have your fun with that, but don't think for one moment that you are part of the solution if you do.



posted on Dec, 6 2017 @ 02:27 PM
link   
a reply to: TrueBrit

What's the best source of knitting wool??



posted on Dec, 7 2017 @ 03:51 AM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

I cannot believe you have to ask that.

Its the stuff which is wrapped over your eyes, the stuff you pulled into position there by your own hand.



posted on Dec, 7 2017 @ 07:35 AM
link   

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: nwtrucker

I cannot believe you have to ask that.

Its the stuff which is wrapped over your eyes, the stuff you pulled into position there by your own hand.


Not bad. Not bad at all....




top topics



 
22
<< 17  18  19    21 >>

log in

join