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"Close friendship with Jehovah belongs to those who fear him." —Psalms 25v14.

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posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 10:58 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
Jesus ended the works doctrine, it's not about fear once you understand love and being in Christs love, fear fades away as love grows.
...
Fear ends, ...

Matthew 10:28 (Jesus teaching a commandment)

And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul;*+ rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.*+

1st *: Or “life,” that is, life prospects.
2nd *: Gehenna. The Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom, southwest of ancient Jerusalem. (Jer 7:31) It was prophetically spoken of as a place where dead bodies would be strewn. (Jer 7:32; 19:6) There is no evidence that animals or humans were thrown into Gehenna to be burned alive or tormented. So the place could not symbolize an invisible region where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire. Rather, Gehenna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize the eternal punishment of “second death,” that is, everlasting destruction, annihilation.—Re 20:14; Mt 5:22; 10:28.

1st +: Proverbs 29:25

25 Trembling at* [Or “Fear of.”] men is* [Or “lays.”] a snare,

But the one trusting in Jehovah will be protected.


Remember my earlier video about "Religion is a snare and a racket"? Or what I said about:

....phobomancy: superstituous fear or phobia; the use of fear and evil to manipulate the minds and action of others, eg. the hellfire doctrine

Revelation 2:10

10 Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

2nd +: Luke 12:4, 5 (Jesus teaching again)

4 Moreover, I say to you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. 5 But I will show you whom to fear: Fear the One who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·henʹna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One.+

+: Isaiah 8:13

13 Jehovah of armies—he is the One you should regard as holy,

He is the One you should fear,

And he is the One who should cause you to tremble.”


Hebrews 10:31

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1 Peter 2:17

17 Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, honor the king.

Revelation 14:7

7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs* [Or “fountains.”] of water.”

These verses, in particular the one in Matthew and Luke contrast the improper fear spoken of in the OP with proper fear (of Jehovah God, the living God, "him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna", "this One", and not Three-in-One).

1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts* [Or “drives.”] fear out, because fear restrains us. Indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love.

That is talking about improper fear (of condemnation or rejection; see further below). 1 John 2:5:

5 But whoever does observe his word, in this person the love of God has truly been made perfect. By this we know that we are in union with him.

As mentioned in the OP:

It is not a morbid fear that tears down; “the fear of Jehovah is pure.” (Ps 19:9) This fear is defined thus at Proverbs 8:13: “The fear of Jehovah means the hating of bad.” It will prevent one from following a bad course, for “in the fear of Jehovah one turns away from bad.”—Pr 16:6.

And causes a person to "observe his word". Observe (obey) his commandments. This is the proper type of fear that God's word talks about. This is also what "the love of God means", as described at 1 John 5:3.

I think I'll take God's word for it over yours (both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures a.k.a. the New Testament, as well as the teachings from Jesus that he was taught by his Father and God).

John 8:28

28 Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things.

Ah well, since I know some people won't click 1 John 5:3:

3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,

Proper fear with proper love, it's quite something different than the improper fear (for the wrong things) and improper love (for the wrong things) that is contrasted with it in the bible.

When the apostle John wrote that “perfect love throws fear outside,” what did he mean by “perfect love,” and what “fear” is thus thrown outside?

...1 John 4:18.

The context shows that John was discussing freeness of speech—specifically the relationship between love of God and freeness of speech toward Him. This can be seen from what we read in 1Jo 4 verse 17: “This is how love has been made perfect with us, that we may have freeness of speech in the day of judgment.” The degree to which a Christian loves God and senses God’s love for him has a direct effect on his freeness of speech—or the lack of it—when he approaches God in prayer.

The expression “perfect love” is significant. As used in the Bible, the word “perfect” does not always mean perfection in the absolute sense, that is, to the infinite degree, but often in a relative sense. For example, in his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: “You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus was telling his followers that if they loved only those loving them, their love would be incomplete, deficient, defective. They should perfect, or bring to full measure, their love by including even their enemies. Similarly, then, when John wrote about “perfect love,” he was speaking about love of God that is wholehearted, fully developed, and embracing all aspects of one’s life.—Matthew 5:46-48; 19:20, 21.

When approaching God in prayer, a Christian is well aware that he is sinful and imperfect. However, if his love for God and his feeling of God’s love for him are fully developed, he is not hampered by fear of condemnation or rejection. Rather, he enjoys freeness of speech in expressing what is in his heart and in asking for forgiveness on the basis of the ransom sacrifice, which God has lovingly provided through Jesus Christ. He feels assured that his petitions are favorably heard by God.

How can one be “made perfect in love” and thus ‘throw outside’ fear of condemnation or rejection? “Whoever does observe his [God’s] word, truthfully in this person the love of God has been made perfect,” said the apostle John. (1 John 2:5) Consider: If God loved us when we were yet sinners, would he not love us all the more if we are truly repentant and diligently “observe his word”? (Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:10)...

Source: Questions From Readers

Take note of point 4 and the bible quotation at 3:48 (or point 3 before that):

edit on 2-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 2 2017 @ 01:46 AM
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originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: whereislogic
...most accurately pronounced "Yahweh".

That's in the eye of the biased beholder who doesn't like Jehovah, in some cases even hates Jehovah. I don't see you doing the same to the name Jesus (arguing that changing the "J" to a "Y" for example is "most accurately pronounced", not talking about just saying "Yeshua" in a comment here or there, especially when arguing against "Jehovah" while on other occasions you simply say "Jesus" and quote from bibles that say "Jesus" if you do that at all, quoting from the bible; like those quoting from the KJV that uses "Jehovah" but still want to use that same way of arguing and thinking about it, see the 2 videos at the end of this comment). The name that has been translated to Jesus in Hebrew characters has the same first 2 Hebrew characters as the name that has been translated to Jehovah. Be consistent if you don't like certain spellings, talking about what you choose to argue, you don't feel the need to argue and make comments like that against the name Jesus (also a name used in the OP that has been translated from the Hebrew and/or the Greek). And for those who take your comment seriously and think they can get some "beneficial teaching" (2 Tim 4:3,4) or good arguments from it "to have their ears tickled" (cause I have a feeling you don't want to do this), checkout the link in the OP called "Jehovah's Witnesses: Defending the Divine Name"; which already partly addressed your way of thinking and arguing about this subject, from which it shows that there might be a possibility that you're hoping that those who read your comment won't watch that video, which is a reasonable assumption (that they won't watch) making your comment more effective in misleading those who read it and keeping them in the dark regarding the information in that video, whether intentional or not. Or this one:

The name Jehovah and its theophoric names.

Baal is a title, not a name.

False/incorrect, it's both used as a name and a title in the bible, one time it's a name, the other time it's a title, the context shows which is which.

Jehovah never existed in the original texts.

The name "Jesus" also never appeared in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures (and a whole bunch of other names as they have been translated to English, did you know "Jesus" is written as "Jezus" in Dutch bible translations?). Again, you don't argue against Jesus like you do against Jehovah. Quite telling when considering Jeremiah 23:27,28 as quoted in the OP: "They intend to make my people forget my name....declares Jehovah".

Makes figuring out some things very easy and obvious for genuine truthseekers:



This is an ironic phrase though: "Yeshua bar Joseph". Why aren't you changing the name "Joseph" according to your logic in that half Hebrew half English phrase? Why not give us the phrase completely in English as we're talking English here. Why not completely in Hebrew (transliterated to the Roman Alphabet) if you insist on giving the phrase in Hebrew? Is that like those bible translators who refuse to translate "Hallelujah" (mostly Hebrew) to the English "Praise Jah!" as these translators deceptively and erronuously translate it in what they refer to as the Old Testament to "Praise the LORD!" Why do English bible translations such as the KJV and NIV leave it in the Hebrew "Hallelujah" and won't translate it in the book of Revelation? Might it make the obscuration behaviour described at Jeremiah 23:27,28 a little too obvious*? Ever heard of 'hiding in plain sight'? Details regarding "Hallelujah" below (towards the end):

JW ARCHIVES DIVINE NAME JHWH YHWH JEHOVAH NWT NIV COMPARE.

*: including that the argument regarding what is referred to as the New Testament in relation to God's name as used by the Vatican below is false and deceptive:
"you can't use his name!"
edit on 2-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2017 @ 03:37 AM
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originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: whereislogic
...most accurately pronounced "Yahweh".

That's in the eye of the biased beholder who doesn't like Jehovah, in some cases even hates Jehovah. I don't see you doing the same to the name Jesus (arguing that changing the "J" to a "Y" for example is "most accurately pronounced", not talking about just saying "Yeshua" in a comment here or there, especially when arguing against "Jehovah" while on other occasions you simply say "Jesus" and quote from bibles that say "Jesus" if you do that at all, quoting from the bible). The name that has been translated to Jesus in Hebrew characters has the same first 2 Hebrew characters as the name that has been translated to Jehovah. Be consistent if you don't like certain spellings, talking about what you choose to argue, you don't feel the need to argue and make comments like that against the name Jesus (also a name used in the OP that has been translated from the Hebrew and/or the Greek). And for those who take your comment seriously and think they can get some "beneficial teaching" (2 Tim 4:3,4 or good arguments from it "to have their ears tickled" (cause I have a feeling you don't want to do this), checkout the link in the OP called "Jehovah's Witnesses: Defending the Divine Name". Or this one:

The name Jehovah and its theophoric names.

Baal is a title, not a name.

False/incorrect, it's both used as a name and a title in the bible, one time it's a name, the other time it's a title, the context shows which is which.

Jehovah never existed in the original texts.

The name "Jesus" also never appeared in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures (and a whole bunch of other names as they have been translated to English, did you know "Jesus" is written as "Jezus" in Dutch bible translations?). Again, you don't argue against Jesus like you do against Jehovah. Quite telling when considering Jeremiah 23:27,28 as quoted in the OP: "They intend to make my people forget my name....declares Jehovah".

Makes figuring out some things very easy and obvious for genuine truthseekers:



If you check on the the original Hebrew text of Jeremiah 23:27-28 or in the Septuagint (say in Brenton's translation from the Greek) it makes no mention of "Jehovah", it says "YHWH".

We should also be using "Yeshua" (the Hebrew equivalent of "Joshua") rather than "Jesus", which isn't even Greek (the original written language of the New Testament), but is in fact a Latin translation.

... and "Ba'al" is Northwest Semitic (Canaanite/Phoenician) for "Lord", an honorific, not a name, where it was used to describe human kings and rulers as well as deities.

The "Baal's" referred to in the Old Testament are either; "Ba'al Hadad", or Ba'al Shamem, or Ba'al Melqart (although there is actually a whole pantheon of "Ba'al" deities).

In fact, in the Old Testament, the word "Baal" ( בַּ֫עַל ) is used for owner or husband (as in owner of one wife), e.g: Gen 20:3, Ex 21:3, Ex 21:22, Ex 21:28, Ex 21:29, Ex 21:34, Ex 22:11, Ex 22:12, Ex 22:14, Deut 22:22, & Deut 24:14. Or, as "chief" or "pinnacle", e.g: Lev 21:4 & Numbers 21:28. Or, as "archer', "lord", "master" or "ruler", e.g: Gen 14:13, Gen 37:19, Ex 24:14, Lev 21:4 (again), Deut 15:2 & Deut 21:13. And, even is used in the diminutive for "citizens" or "subjects", eg: Josh 24:11.



posted on Dec, 2 2017 @ 08:09 AM
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originally posted by: chr0naut
We should also be using "Yeshua" (the Hebrew equivalent of "Joshua") rather than "Jesus", ...

Why won't you leave out the vowels from "Yeshua" just like you're doing with YHWH? There are no vowel marks in the original Hebrew for any name or word. The name that has been translated to "Jesus" and "Joshua" (in English translations, in Dutch it's "Jezus" and "Jozua" respectively) does not show any vowel marks in the original Hebrew (ancient Hebrew, before they started using vowel marks, the oldest manuscripts of which, show the vowel marks for "e", "o" and "a" regarding YHWH).

Jehovah in Hebrew (after transliteration to the Roman Alphabet) is "Yehowah"; which is also a transliteration of the Masoretic Texts where those vowel marks can be found, just like for the Hebrew name for Jesus, it's "Yehoshua" ("Yeshua" and "Yoshua"). Why won't you say "Yahshua" or "Yashua" if you want to be consistent with your preferred "Yahweh"? Again, as I said, the first 2 Hebrew characters are the same for both names, why won't you be consistent? The vowel marks in the Masoretic Texts are also the same for Yehoshua, and all the other theophoric names that start with "Yeho..." as shown in the video you perhaps are still hoping people will choose to remain ignorant about. The facts won't go away because some people prefer to stick their heads in the sand as they argue against Jehovah and demonstrate Jeremiah 23:27 (Jeremiah is another theophoric name, why won't you argue that that name should be "YRMH" or that the original Hebrew text doesn't have "Jeremiah" but "YRMH"?). Why won't you argue for "BL" instead of "Baal"? Why do you use vowels in any of your Hebrew when they're not in the original Hebrew text? Why do you end up keeping yourself and other people in the dark concerning the information in the videos I've been sharing by not saying or acknowledging anything in it that is damaging to the inconsistent way of arguing and selective use of half-truths that you're using to obscure God's identity and name, making both more ambiguous and possibly confusing people in the process about it?

Matthew 15:7-11

You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” 10 With that he called the crowd near and said to them: “Listen and get the sense of it: 11 It is not what enters into a man’s mouth that defiles him, but it is what comes out of his mouth that defiles him.”

Note that Jesus was quoting Isaiah who in turn was relaying Jehovah's message as found at the text in the Hebrew Scriptures that Jesus was quoting above. So the "me" in there is referring to "Jehovah".

2 Cor. 11:12-15

But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

Which includes the work of obscuring God's identity by making his name (which has many different spellings in different languages, just like all the other names in the bible) more ambiguous, showing your true feelings towards Jehovah God. There's neither love nor fear there. You do not love Jehovah, you do not fear [have reverence for] Jehovah. That's crystal clear. Yet you honor God with your lips by claiming to be a worshipper of God, but your heart is far removed from Jehovah God.

Luke 4:8

In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Matthew 22:34-38

34 After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment.

You are encouraging people to disobey the greatest and first commandment as Jesus quoted and paraphrased it from Deuteronomy 6:5 (ASV):

and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Darby Bible Translation:
and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.

Young's Literal Translation:
and thou hast loved Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might,

NWT:
You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength.* [Or “vital force; resources.”]


Remember, "Hallelujah" means "Praise Jah", "Jah" is the shortened version of God's name "Jehovah" (not the first syllable). Bible translators know this, but they won't share that information in their translation, they'll even use "Yahweh" and "Hallelujah" in the same translation sometimes. Talk about hiding in plain sight and being inconsistent.

For the truthseekers out here, walk along this path or quest, cause the truth is out there, don't waste your time on red herring debates about half-truths* concerning the name Baal for example, which is also used as a noun in the bible, but that doesn't negate the times it's used as a personal identifying name such as at Jer. 23:27 (*: not telling or acknowledging everything, not showing the full picture; see further below):

INDIANA JONES AND NAME OF GOD JEHOVAH; YHWH; IEHOVA;


The “understanding heart is one that searches for knowledge”; it is not satisfied with a mere superficial view but seeks to get the full picture. (Pr 15:14) Knowledge must become ‘pleasant to one’s very soul’ if discernment is to safeguard one from perversion and deception.—Pr 2:10, 11; 18:15; see KNOWLEDGE.

Source: Understanding: Insight, Volume 2

...They sift the facts, exploiting the useful ones and concealing the others. They also distort and twist facts, specializing in lies and half-truths. ...

Source: Do Not Be a Victim of Propaganda! Awake!—2000

Why won't you argue for "Yaramieh" or "Yaremieh" when talking about Jeremiah? Why won't you say Yarusalem when talking about Jerusalem (which is spelled "Jeruzalem" on Dutch maps and in Dutch bibles)? Why won't you quote from (or speak) God's word truthfully?

Jeremiah 23:27a,28

They intend to make my people forget my name...28 Let the prophet who has a dream relate the dream, but the one who has my word should speak my word truthfully.”

“What does the straw have in common with the grain?” declares Jehovah.


"They are prophets of the deceit of their own heart." (verse 26b)
edit on 2-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2017 @ 01:14 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut
We should also be using "Yeshua" (the Hebrew equivalent of "Joshua") rather than "Jesus", which isn't even Greek (the original written language of the New Testament), but is in fact a Latin translation.

Incorrect/false. In Latin it's Iesus, in Greek it's Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous after transliteration, this is how the bible writers wrote it down in Greek as well, showing that it's OK to translate names from the Hebrew to whatever language you're using). As the video in the OP that is called "Jehovah's Witnesses: Defending the Divine Name" also shows.

In Spanish it's Jésus. Names change from language to language, big deal. No reason to start pointing out to people that Jesus isn't in the original Hebrew or Greek. Which you don't do (except now temporarily, on other occasions you don't; as explained in my first reply to you, you almost always say Jesus in your commentary if I remember correctly, just like you have no issues saying "Jeremiah", or any of the other "J' or "Je" or "J....ah" names in the bible), only for the name Jehovah, that's the only individual you have issues with, then suddenly it's an issue if someone uses the English rendering of that name. When someone on this forum is saying "Jesus" why won't you respond with the same line of argumentation? When you quote an english bible do you quote bibles that use "Jesus"? Do you really want to continue sounding like a Black Hebrew Israelite?

Jeremiah (English), Ἰερεμίας (Greek), Ieremías (after transliteration).

2 Cor.10:3-5

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare* [Lit., “we are not doing military service.”] according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;

Proverbs 18:10

The name of Jehovah is a strong tower.

Into it the righteous one runs and receives protection.* [Lit., “is raised high,” that is, out of reach, safe.]


It also makes the following really easy and protects against demonic deception (when in doubt, fall back to the tower, it's crystal clear that God's name is Jehovah in English, Dutch and German, to name 3 examples, note that in Dutch and German the "J" is pronounced the same way as the "Y" in the English "Yes" and the "I" in the Latin "Iehova" or the "G" in the Italian "Géova"; not that a correct pronounciation is relevant, just an interesting tidbit to show that names are spelled differently in different languages and that bringing up that "Jehovah" isn't in the original Hebrew texts is a moot point, a red herring to distract from the reality of Jehovah's existence as an individual and that Jesus is his begotten/created Son, the firstborn of all creation, and that the first and greatest commandment in the bible still tells Christians to love Jehovah God, which in my book, doesn't include favoring bible translations that replaced God's name with "the LORD", God" and "the Lord" approx. 7000 times, the ultimate demonstration of Jeremiah 23:27 and hiding in plain sight, the latter especially concerning those translations such as the KJV that still leave "Jehovah" in there 4 times, but replace it the other 7000 times, such as at Ps.25:14 as quoted in the title of this thread):

Eph.6:12

because we have a struggle,* [Lit., “wrestling.”] not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.


Quoting Chronaut from other threads in which he has no issues with people using the name Jesus or uses "J" names or other names in the English rendering without issues (between brackets is mine):

In fact, as there was only one Temple of YHWH God and it was in Jerusalem....[inconsistent, why not remove the vowels and change the "J" in Jerusalem as well?]
It was written at least 300 years after Christ...[what no issues that "Christ" isn't in the Hebrew or Greek?]
Even the Talmud, in Sanhedrin 43a, mentions Jesus...[ahhh, so only in this thread when the subject of the spelling "Jehovah" in english comes up, "We should also be using "Yeshua" ... rather than "Jesus", which isn't even Greek (the original written language of the New Testament)..."; leaving out the misleading stuff]
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged..."[ah, so we're going to quote texts that are half English half inaccurate 'transliterated Hebrew', and what happened to "Yeshua"? When you're quoting something it's no problem right? After all, you're simply quoting something and that's what it says and you were making another point and not making issues out of name spellings in different languages, I think I don't have to wonder why you weren't making an issue out of it in that thread that also uses "Jesus" in the title and has many people saying "Jesus", not once did you tell any of them that we should use "Yeshua" instead]
However, remembering that Jesus died in 33 CE....
Gospel of John...[doesn't say "John" in the Greek either]
...the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE...
according to Josephus...[you guessed it, not the way his name was spelled by himself and those around him, if it was written down in Hebrew, they wouldn't have even used vowel marks at the time he lived]
Pontius Pilate was deposed as Prefect of Judea and sent to Rome by Lucius Vitellius, the Syrian Govenor, in 36 AD. Pilate arrived in Rome a few days after Tiberius died. [lots of names there, all in the English rendering, apparently there isn't always an issue with doing that, I always get confused with Pilate, cause it's Pilatus in Dutch and I often think it's Pilatus in English as well, a typical Latin ending to a name, unlike Pilate]
of just such a Messiah...[that's also an English rendering of a Hebrew word, not an exact spelling of it allthough very similar]
the God of Abraham...[Abraham is also not in the Hebrew, and no vowel marks, so I guess when applying your logic consistently to your argument earlier then that argument becomes "The true name of Abraham as revealed in the Bible is "BRHM"]

Comments were from the thread "Vatican: Bible Confirms Jesus Was Not Crucified".
edit on 2-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2017 @ 03:35 PM
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a reply to: chr0naut
Oh, it's OK to answer rhetorical questions. It's not forbidden. Jesus also asked a lot of them to the Jewish scribes and religious leaders and teachers, hardly ever got any direct clear and reasonable answers either though. And clues as to the answers are already given in the bible quotations, such as:

"the deceit of their own heart" (Jer. 23:26)

Here's another one that may help with self-reflection...

Jeremiah 23:9,10

The heart is more treacherous* [Or “deceitful.”] than anything else and is desperate.* [Or possibly, “incurable.”]

Who can know it?

10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,

Examining the innermost thoughts,* [Or “deepest emotions.” Lit., “kidneys.”]

To give to each one according to his ways,

According to the fruitage of his works.


And that ending is a good ending for anyone who likes to use his 'dismissal'-card for anything in half of the bible (the part they refer to as the Old Testament) that isn't tickling their ears or doesn't suit what they want to hear, believe or promote, express, teach (can't find the word I want to use). Nevertheless, their convenient opinion about such texts doesn't diminish the message and warning* or promise* from Jehovah (*: depending on what kind of works whether it could be seen as a warning or a promise of a reward).
edit on 2-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2017 @ 10:30 PM
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originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: chr0naut
We should also be using "Yeshua" (the Hebrew equivalent of "Joshua") rather than "Jesus", ...

Why won't you leave out the vowels from "Yeshua" just like you're doing with YHWH? There are no vowel marks in the original Hebrew for any name or word. The name that has been translated to "Jesus" and "Joshua" (in English translations, in Dutch it's "Jezus" and "Jozua" respectively) does not show any vowel marks in the original Hebrew (ancient Hebrew, before they started using vowel marks, the oldest manuscripts of which, show the vowel marks for "e", "o" and "a" regarding YHWH).


But the New Testament was not originally written in Hebrew, but in Greek. So references to "Yeshua" (the Hebrew name, meaning "YHWH Saves"), rendered into Greek as "Ιησούς" (transliterated as "Iésous"), had both capitalization and vowels. For this reason, I am actually happy to accept "Jesus" as an acceptable English form of the name.

The reason I am being picky is because the Watchtower Society is very lax in its application of language and has deliberately used terms which are indistinct and arguable, in place of the highly specific and strongly typed original language, as justification for its beliefs (e.g: the translation of “proskuneo”, Greek for "worship" as "obesiance". I mean, who uses the word "obesience" in the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries anyway?).

The letters of the Tetragrammaton have significance, as do the components of most Hebrew words and names. As individual glyphs, they mean 'observe', 'hand', 'observe', 'nail' (This is an obvious reference to Yeshua, thousands of years before the crucifixion).

The 2nd Temple practice of avoiding saying, or writing, the name of God, while out of respect for the name, has led to its replacement by titles such as "Lord" (Adonai) and considerable confusion as to its vocalization.

The Masoretes, from about 600 to 1,200 years after the New Testament was written, wanting to keep the Tetragrammaton and acknowledging 2nd Temple custom, wrote the vowel points from Adonai around the Tetragrammaton, producing the compound word "Yehowah".

This did not appear as the English transliteration "Jehovah", until after 1,500 years, after the New Testament was written.

No-one earlier than 15th Century had ever heard of the name Jehovah. So Yeshua (Jesus) never said the name either when He summarized the Law.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do not represent the God of the Old Testament nor the Christ of the New Testament, in either name, or in doctrine. If they did, they would either be doctrinally indistinguishable from Judaism or from Christianity.

edit on 2/12/2017 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2017 @ 11:40 PM
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originally posted by: chr0naut
But the New Testament was not originally written in Hebrew, but in Greek. So references to "Yeshua" (the Hebrew name, meaning "YHWH Saves"), rendered into Greek as "Ιησούς" (transliterated as "Iésous"), had both capitalization and vowels. For this reason, I am actually happy to accept "Jesus" as an acceptable English form of the name.

Ignoring for a moment that that last sentence is contradicting your earlier argument regarding "we should use Yeshua...instead of Jesus" (the implication being we should do so even when we're talking English cause we were talking English and that argument was put forward in English, well, half English, not counting "Yeshua"), not that you seem to care but:
Iehova - Wiktionary

Latin
Alternative forms

Iehōua
Jehōva

Etymology

Traditional reading of the Biblical Hebrew יהוה‏,....
The Greek equivalent ΙΕΗΩΟΥΑ is found even in Late Antiquity, in the Pistis Sophia (perhaps a 2nd century text, extant in 5th or 6th century manuscripts).

The vowels there are "e", "o" and "a" as well. Hallelujah is in the Greek as well (in the Greek rendering that is). I can still tell that you refuse to watch, address, mention or acknowledge any of the facts mentioned in the videos I'm sharing that undermine your line of argumentation, how convenient for your argumentation. This time you're also parroting an altered version of the argument made by the Vatican responded to in the video "you can't use his name!" (which is about the Christian Greek Scriptures a.k.a. The New Testament), as if you've never heard of the response and are blissfully or willfully ignorant of the evidence presented in that video, with pictures of archeological finds (incl. fragments of the Septuagint before they started replacing God's name with the Greek word for "lord" in the Septuagint).

Your comment also contains falsehoods/lies/errors (things that are not true/factual/correct, without error) and convenient carefully selected* half-truths again (*: selected to favor your way of thinking and arguing about the subject; leaving out inconvenient truths/facts such as the ones I quoted from wiktionary above). I can't say I'm surprised (leaving it in the middle as to whether or not it's deliberate, don't feel like trying to figure that one out).

Proverbs 14:5,7,8

5 A faithful witness is one that will not lie, but a false witness launches forth mere lies.
...
7 Stay away from the foolish man,
For you will not find knowledge on his lips.
8 By wisdom the shrewd man understands the way he is going,
But the stupid are deceived* by their foolishness.
[*: Or possibly, “the stupid deceive others.”]

1 Timothy 4:1,2

However, the inspired utterance* [Or, “the spirit.”] says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances* and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron;

1 Timothy 6:20

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.”

Next time you make a comment, try quoting from the bible to support whatever you're saying, doesn't even have to be relevant and I can't stop you from twisting it anyway (on average, how often do you quote from the bible? I can't find any comment of yours that does so on ATS, perhaps I haven't looked hard enough; not counting a reference to a word or short phrase here or there).

2 Peter 3:16

...speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant* [Or “untaught.”] and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Is it some kind of rule in your religion that you can't quote or speak God's "word truthfully" (Jer. 23:28)?

I did see you quoting from the Babylonian Talmud, even included it in my list of quotations.

Proverbs 14:12

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,

But in the end it leads to death.


Proverbs 30:12

12 There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes

But has not been cleansed from its filth.* [Lit., “excrement.”]


Psalm 36:1, 2

36 Transgression speaks to the wicked one deep within his heart;

There is no fear of God before his eyes.

2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much

To detect and hate his error.


Isaiah 65:1,5-7a (Jehovah's message)

“I have let myself be searched for by those who did not ask for me;

I have let myself be found by those who did not look for me.

I said, ‘Here I am, here I am!’ to a nation that was not calling on my name.
...
5 They say, ‘Keep to yourself; do not approach me,

For I am holier than you.’* [Or possibly, “For I will convey my holiness to you.”]

These are a smoke in my nostrils, a fire burning all day long.

6 Look! It is written before me;

I will not stand still,

But I will repay them,

I will repay them in full measure* [Lit., “into their bosom.”]

7 For their errors and for the errors of their forefathers as well,” says Jehovah.
...


Isaiah chapter 45 in an honest accurate translation:

edit on 3-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2017 @ 03:16 AM
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originally posted by: chr0naut
No-one earlier than 15th Century had ever heard of the name Jehovah. So Yeshua (Jesus) never said the name either when He summarized the Law.


Pistis Sophia...ΙΕΗΩΟΥΑ ... Charles William King... comments:

"This is in fact a very correct representation, if we give each vowel its true Greek sound, of the Hebrew pronunciation of the word Jehovah."[116] (2nd century)

Source: Jehovah - Wikipedia


Excerpts from Raymond Martin's (Lat. Raymundus Martini, appointed by the Pope to dig up the passages of the Jewish Talmud objectionable to Roman Catholics) Pugio Fidei adversus Mauros et Judaeos of 1270 CE (page 559). The Latin form "Jehova" of the Tetragrammaton is seen.

Source: File:JEHOVA Raymundus Pugio Fidei 1270 a.png - Wikimedia Commons

Wish I knew how to link pictures directly without uploading images to ATS, which seems to be broken for me.

John 17:20-26 (Jesus praying to his God Jehovah)

20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,* [Or “be completely unified.”] so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”


You're just following the line of argumentation that was already shown in the 2 videos: "nikkie2christ & Barbsinclair (The KJV is inconsistent)", as well as the line of argumentation addressed in the videos above now.

"There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes

But has not been cleansed from its filth.* [Lit., “excrement.”]" (Pr.30:12) Urban English: "crap":

No-one earlier than 15th Century had ever heard of the name Jehovah. So Yeshua (Jesus) never said the name either when He summarized the Law.

Proverbs 6:16,19; 19:5

16 There are six things that Jehovah hates;

Yes, seven things that he* [Or “his soul.”] detests:

19 A false witness who lies with every breath,

And anyone sowing contentions among brothers.

5 A false witness will not go unpunished,

And the one who lies with every breath will not escape.


Exodus 23:1a

“You must not spread* [Lit., “take up.”] a report that is not true. ...

Proverbs 12:22

22 Lying lips are detestable to Jehovah,

But those acting faithfully bring pleasure to him.


Exodus 32:26

26 Then Moses took his position in the gate of the camp and said: “Who is on Jehovah’s side? Come to me!” And all the Levites gathered around him.

Psalms 15:

15 O Jehovah, who may be a guest in your tent?

Who may reside in your holy mountain?

2 The one who is walking faultlessly,* [Or “with integrity.”]

Practicing what is right

And speaking the truth in his heart.

3 He does not slander with his tongue,

He does nothing bad to his neighbor,

And he does not defame* [Or “shame.”] his friends.

4 He rejects anyone who is contemptible,

But he honors those fearing Jehovah.


He does not go back on his promise,* [Lit., “oath.”] even when it is bad for him.

5 He does not lend his money on interest,

And he does not accept a bribe against the innocent.

Whoever does these things will never be shaken.* [Or “will never stagger (totter).”]

edit on 3-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2017 @ 05:40 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: whereislogic

Right. Fear god... or else.


Ridiculers often refuse to listen to rebuke (Pr 13:1) and do not love those reproving them. (Pr 9:7, 8; 15:12) Nevertheless, they should be disciplined for the benefit of others. (Pr 9:12; 19:25, 29; 21:11)

Source: Ridicule: Insight, Volume 2

Pr. 15:12

The scoffer does not love the one correcting* him. [Or “reproving.”]

He will not consult the wise.


Reproof: Insight, Volume 2

That which is designed to convince others of their having erred, in order to move them to acknowledge their mistakes and correct these. Unlike reproof, a rebuke may be a censure without any laying bare of fault by the presentation of evidence. ...

When Needed. In God’s law to Israel, persons transgressed against were urged: “You must not hate your brother in your heart. You should by all means reprove your associate, that you may not bear sin along with him.” (Le 19:17) Feelings of resentment against the erring brother were not to be allowed to fester. He was to be reproved with a view to recovering him from sin. Failure to discharge this moral responsibility could contribute toward further sin, and the person who held back from reproving his associate would share responsibility for such sin.—Compare Mt 18:15.

At times, elders representative of the congregation must reprove serious wrongdoers, even doing so in the presence of others who have knowledge of the sinful course. Such reproof is not reserved only for those who show a receptiveness to it. Elders are also called on to “reprove those who contradict” and to ‘reprove with severity’ those who are “unruly” and “profitless talkers.”—1Ti 5:20; Tit 1:9, 10, 13.

Although reproof can benefit those who receive it, the efforts of the reprover are not always appreciated. Thus Proverbs 9:7, 8 warns: “He that is correcting the ridiculer is taking to himself dishonor, and he that is giving a reproof to someone wicked—a defect in him. Do not reprove a ridiculer, that he may not hate you. Give a reproof to a wise person and he will love you.”

Proper Attitude. Since the Scriptures are inspired of God, all reproof solidly based on them is really reproof from him. (2Ti 3:16) Jehovah’s reproof is an expression of love, not to be abhorred or rejected. (Pr 3:11, 12) As head of the Christian congregation, Jesus Christ, in affection for its members, sees to it that needed reproof is given through spiritually qualified men. (Re 3:14, 19) Wise ones appreciate that “the reproofs of discipline are the way of life.”—Pr 6:23.

The sinful human tendency is to resent reproof and the human servant through whom it may be given. But yielding to this tendency degrades one to the level of an unreasoning beast lacking moral discrimination; as the inspired proverb expresses it: “A hater of reproof is unreasoning.” (Pr 12:1) In contrast, the psalmist David, who was himself repeatedly reproved, wrote: “Should the righteous one strike me, it would be a loving-kindness; and should he reprove me, it would be oil upon the head, which my head would not want to refuse.”—Ps 141:5.

Revelation 3:19

“‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline. So be zealous and repent.

2 Corinthians 11:11-15

For what reason? Because I do not love you? God knows I do.

12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis* [Or “pretext.”] for being found equal to us in the things* [Or “the office.”] about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.


Discipline: Insight, Volume 1

...
Results From Heeding and From Ignoring. The wicked, the fools, or the morally worthless ones show their hatred of Jehovah’s discipline by rejecting it completely. (Ps 50:16, 17; Pr 1:7)
...
They paid no attention to the discipline in the form of reproof and correction...
...
By contrast, acceptance of discipline, coupled with a wholesome fear of Jehovah, makes one wise, able to use knowledge aright, and thus helps one to avoid much pain and suffering. ...

Proverbs 8:

4 “To you, O people, I am calling;

I raise my voice to everyone.* [Lit., “to the sons of men.”]

5 You inexperienced ones, learn shrewdness;

You stupid ones, acquire an understanding heart.* [whereislogic: see earlier quotation about the concept of "the full picture" as opposed to half-truths]

6 Listen, for what I say is important,

My lips speak what is right;

7 For my mouth softly utters truth,

And my lips detest what is wicked.

8 All the sayings of my mouth are righteous.

None of them are twisted or crooked.

9 They are all straightforward to the discerning

And right to those who have found knowledge.

10 Take my discipline instead of silver,

And knowledge rather than the finest gold,

11 For wisdom is better than corals;

All other desirable things cannot compare to it.

12 I, wisdom, dwell together with shrewdness;

I have found knowledge and thinking ability.

13 The fear of Jehovah means the hating of bad.

I hate self-exaltation and pride and the evil way and perverse speech.

14 I possess good advice and practical wisdom;

Understanding and power are mine.
...
17 I love those loving me,

And those seeking me will find me.
...
22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,

The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

23 From ancient times* [Or “From time immemorial.”] I was installed,

From the start, from times earlier than the earth.

24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,* [Or “brought forth as with labor pains.”]

When there were no springs overflowing with water.

25 Before the mountains were set in place,

Before the hills, I was brought forth,

26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields

Or the first clods of earth’s soil.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;

When he marked out the horizon* [Lit., “a circle.”] on the surface of the waters,

28 When he established* [Lit., “made strong.”] the clouds above,

When he founded the fountains of the deep,

29 When he set a decree for the sea

That its waters should not pass beyond his order,

When he established* [Or “decreed.”] the foundations of the earth,

30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.

I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;

I rejoiced before him all the time;



Caveat regarding the video above: "not a co-Creator"




posted on Dec, 3 2017 @ 06:29 AM
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a reply to: whereislogic


The scoffer does not love the one correcting* him. [Or “reproving.”]

In this case, that would be you.



posted on Dec, 3 2017 @ 08:07 AM
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originally posted by: Jubei42
The only healthy fear I have for god is that he forgot about us.

I would love to have a friendly discussion with jehovas, as of yet they never rang my doorbell.

“Jehovah Had Not Forgotten Me” (THE BIBLE CHANGES LIVES)

Does God Care About Me?

...
What did Jesus say?

▪ “Five sparrows sell for two coins of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them goes forgotten before God. But even the hairs of your heads are all numbered. Have no fear; you are worth more than many sparrows.” (Luke 12:6, 7)
...

edit on 3-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2017 @ 08:14 AM
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originally posted by: queenofswords
a reply to: whereislogic

I would say, counting the research (although .org did that for you....), the layout, the editing, and the typing....then the posting on ATS and subsequent discussions, this is good for counting on your time card at least an hour or two. Good work! Ain't the internet great!

Which one do you like more or the most (you can make a 1-7 list if you feel like it; or perhaps I could go for something you might prefer, listing them from the least objectionable to the one that makes you cringe the most)? All songs are based on bible teachings and contain many quotations from God's Word, the bible:







edit on 3-12-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2017 @ 08:04 PM
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a reply to: whereislogic

Obviously you have not noted that the dates of the document sources you posted. (No amount of re-posting documents from a thousand years or more after Christianity was established in any way indicates that Jesus, or anyone in the 1st Century, used the name "Jehovah").

If the scriptures upon which Judaism is founded are legitimate and true, then Judaism is legitimate and true.

If the scriptures upon which Christianity is founded are legitimate and true, then Christianity is legitimate and true.

You cannot hold to their scriptures and expect to make claim that they are wrong. If either of those faiths are legitimate and true, then the JW movement, which is divergent, must be unnecessary and untrue.

edit on 3/12/2017 by chr0naut because: There is logic!



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