Wendelstein 7-X: hot nuclear fusion reactor now working on second round of testing

This, of course, is not the final word, since the relationship between the (classical) theory of gravity and the standard model's (quantum) theory of fields is uneasy at best. If/when an improved theory is found that treats gravity and other fields on the same foundations, perhaps there will be new relationships uncovered. But that's speculation. What I described above is what we presently know.

www.quora.com...

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

The project attempts to replace gravity with an EM field. Indicative of a conclusion that there is a valid reason to do so.

Yes but the generation of the magnetic fields requires a great deal of energy, whereas the sun has a naturally generated gravitational force which requires no energy input to be sustained, it's a way for high mass systems to leak out energy until their mass reaches a point where fusion can no longer occur.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Yeah but that like saying it runs backwards from what we are trying to do.

It's getting late.

Thoughts?

a reply to: Kashai

That is called “beta” and is your return on investment for creating a nuclear fusion reaction. The goal is a beta of 1, or above. It is the ratio of plasma pressure to the magnetic field pressure. See...

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Lockheed claims that their reactor can do one or above. But they have not released specs on their reactor so everyone scoffs at their claim.

W7-X is different in that the magnetic fields are optimized from the start to maintain a hold on the plasma and twist it from the outside. That it is working is the praise and thread title is referring to (the German engineer thread).

This is cool stuff!

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Perhaps the Lockheed versions are like a Harley?


As referenced in relation to the shape of the magnetic field the word attenuation comes to mind, akin to a tuning fork or a design to benefit from an inherent or fundamental dynamic that is physically relevant.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

That is why they are researching this topic!

They have already created a nuclear fusion reaction on earth. The thing is it takes more energy to create one than you get out.

It has been over sixty years since this started. The main problem has been the magnetic fields generated to keep the plasma from touching the containment vessel... they did not keep getting stronger as they were investigated and time passed. The mid 80’s is where it plateaued out. That is why ITER is so huge; to get the energy out they need to make a large enough amount with the 80s tech they had at hand.

The first generation of new superconducting magnets (REBCO) has been made. But at the atomic level there are gaps that causes problems keeping a stable magnetic field at a certain strength.

First gen REBCO blows the current LHC magnets out of the water. Second gen are being made in labs. Once done the size of reactors shrink as magnetic confinement scales to power of four (IIRC) meaning the stronger the magnetic field the more dense the confined plasma will be thus lowering all the heat you need to add. And the reactor size decreases the same (a quarter smaller, half the size, etc)

That will make the more energy out than in happen.

Music break.

a reply to: dfnj2015

From the plasma video, it seems that they still have some way to go to solve the breakdown of the walls. You can see the sputtering on the portal window.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

I'm not saying fusion cannot produce energy, the sun clearly does produce energy using fusion, I'm questioning whether it's possible to get more energy out of the process than what we put in... until I see that rigorously demonstrated I have to assume energy is being conserved in such a way to make it impractical.

So you are saying that not only is this merely another way to "boil water," but your match may not burn?

(Honestly, I understand nothing of this.... the joke attempt hit me and I had to discharge it.)

a reply to: chr0naut

Say one ran an experiment running all the energy requirements of the Western Hemisphere over a rather short period of time.

Could the energy output exceed what we put in?

Its actually is one of those things one could end up arguing about during Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner, wherein those seated at the children's table, make a promise not to act like their parents, during holidays.

Generally speaking.

a reply to: Kashai

A point would that there is a threshold that if one reaches it, that results in more energy that is put in.

How the walls are breaking indicates as offered a flaw in the product.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

The Wright Flyer was not meant to carry passengers. Just being able to create the machine at all is amazing!

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: dfnj2015

From the plasma video, it seems that they still have some way to go to solve the breakdown of the walls. You can see the sputtering on the portal window.

From here it's all about experimentation and learning how to best optimize the results. The containment field with high fidelity was the tricky part.

Just look how fast airplanes advanced from 1903 to 1923. Aircraft from 1920 to 1929:

www.militaryfactory.com...

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

They have already created a nuclear fusion reaction on earth. The thing is it takes more energy to create one than you get out.

It has been over sixty years since this started.

And that is exactly my concern, after such a long time we've still failed to produce any tangible evidence that fusion can produce more energy than is required to sustain the reaction. I understand these new designs may lead towards something that does work but until we have something that does work I have to go with what my gut is telling me.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Having the hot fusion reaction run continuously is the next step is real power production. I think that is where they are right now. I think it's only run for a minute or two and then they cut off the fuel. Right now they are gathering experimental results to improve the machine.

originally posted by: hiddenNZ
a reply to: Kashai

Yeah OK,but if it fails what can happen,on a Harley you may lock a chain up and lay it down,in a chopper if you lay it down you're dead?

How do we turn nuclear fusion energy into electricity?

Just like with the technological advances with airplanes, you first have to be able to fly before you can carry passengers.

For me what gets me so excited about the Wendelstein 7-X is the success of the containment field for the hot fusion. The rest of the commercialization process is just lots of hard work by engineers. First you have to get passed the is-this-even-possible barrier.

If anything, it's nice to know the World has a viable solution to the post peak-oil energy crisis.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
And that is exactly my concern, after such a long time we've still failed to produce any tangible evidence that fusion can produce more energy than is required to sustain the reaction.

Yet progress is incremental but very real. It's just a matter of time.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I sit just me or does anyone else think that , the reactor looks like something straight out of Akira or Ghost in the Shell
I mean look at it , all pipes and chambers shiedling , its total sci fi !

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: dfnj2015

I sit just me or does anyone else think that , the reactor looks like something straight out of Akira or Ghost in the Shell
I mean look at it , all pipes and chambers shiedling , its total sci fi !

That first animation I put in the OP shows it's construction. It's really amazing!

The twisty shape is a 5 pieces all symmetrical but all rotated on the axis. It's really amazing to think the computer optimization came up with this design as the most effective. It's just an amazing piece of human engineering. It's really good science.

German engineers are the best in the World. I'm not German but I'm smart enough to know who should be admired.

a reply to: dfnj2015

It's certainly a complicated piece of equipment, which is where the problems lay i imagine.