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IRS Nabs Big Win Over Coinbase In Bid For Bitcoin Customer Data

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posted on Nov, 30 2017 @ 06:56 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

The IRS is not going to win this one..friend.

And so far not anyone has had to pay any tax on cryptos...and many lengths will be taken to ensure this.

Some may have volunteered..so sad for them.

It would be a pitiful waste of time trying to audit the blockchains and would cause an even faster stock market correction than is already scheduled.

The more pressure and old ways of doing things are applied..the worse things will be for all.

Get with the program of better..or worse..no turning back either way within months.

Fairness in VALUE will be attained whether or not any "THEY'S" try and play the old games.




posted on Nov, 30 2017 @ 07:01 PM
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originally posted by: proximo

originally posted by: purplemer
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus




he topic is about capital gains/income which you are ignoring.


This topic is about the attempted control of decentralised currency by old failing centralized systems. Something you are ignoring.


Do you even know what you're proposing, you're against taxes, yet I bet you're for healthcare, roads, and Social Security. Guess what you can't have one without the other dummy.

When the new paradigm becomes the paradigm it will be taxed just like the old paradigm. This isn't rocket science.

In the real world things actually cost money and money does not grow on trees no matter what liberal fantasy you've heard.


Liberal fantasy?

Perhaps you should realize and research deeply where all this is going.

Alot of people and other entities are thinking money Is everywhere and is now being seen for what it is.

This is just the beginning of a stage of epic proportions. Pull up a nice chair and watch whether or not you get involved.

The IRS issue ultimately means nothing..they will be irrelevant and want to be apart of it themselves of they are smart.



posted on Nov, 30 2017 @ 07:07 PM
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originally posted by: JinMI
I completely see where you're coming from. Surprise surprise, you're not wrong. Gains made (US citizens) must pay a tax. The IRS would be foolish to ignore those gains made in the crypto market.


I would find anyone who doesn't see the logic of that to be purposefully ignorant.


However, I would wager that there are folks not going through coinbase or even the US to avoid the IRS. It just happens to be Coinbase is the easiest route, and folks pay for that convenience, in more ways than one.


I don't doubt that either. People are always looking for ways to avoid taxation.



posted on Nov, 30 2017 @ 07:08 PM
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originally posted by: ParasuvO
The IRS is not going to win this one..friend.


It already has.



posted on Nov, 30 2017 @ 07:15 PM
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a reply to: ParasuvO




The IRS is not going to win this one..friend.


As long as folks stay glued to the way things have always been done, the IRS will win. If folks seek to turn over their crypto for USD, the IRS will be there and in the courts and in the business who facilitate.

The trick is to either hold it until you can use it or find way to turn it into a resource outside the USD.

There will never be a way to trade BTC for USD without the concern of the IRS. So, if folks expect to go forward with the crypto plan, they need to think outside the USD. This IMO will eventually lead to a use tax.



posted on Nov, 30 2017 @ 07:26 PM
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a reply to: [post=22910644]Tempter[/pos


Surely if you can pay the tax on a capital gain, then you get a tax deduction on a capital loss?



posted on Nov, 30 2017 @ 07:45 PM
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Wait wait wait, if I make a gain in bitcoins I have to pay taxes like all the other income I make? Nooo wayyyy! I should have taken the red pill.



posted on Nov, 30 2017 @ 08:57 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Tempter
So where does it end?

If I traded paperclips with a friend and somehow pulled off getting more, do I need to consider that a profit and do you think the IRS deserves a cut of that?

We seem to be making the claim that currency doesn't matter, but rather anything you make a profit off of.

It still seem that until the thing being traded or used is transferred to a currency that the government controls is when it is taxed.

So if no one actually converts BT into a $, how is it any different than trading paperclips?


Like I said, many of you just don't seem to know the topic that well:


Bartering

Bartering is an exchange of property or services. You must include in your income, at the time received, the fair market value of property or services you receive in bartering. For additional information, Refer to Tax Topic 420 - Bartering Income and Barter Exchanges. The Internal Revenue Service always gets its pound of flesh.



And some people think they're smart and look like dumb-asses when attempting to prove so.

Bartering is a joke.

By those all-encompassing words you were so happy to copy-paste into your reply you belie the EXACT REALITY that almost NO ONE does this.

Again, you can cite a words which don't even prove you right if you want, but you don't come off looking smart, even about this topic, when they don't support the reality.

If those words were cited by the IRS as an attempt to collect taxes on BT transfers IN THE CHAIN then I could easily counter with selective prosecution and drag this thing out until the public is behind it. Remember, as the value goes up more and more non-technical or non-financial people will invest.


The government is trying to FABRICATE taxes owed against users of Bitcoin inside the chain. Let them have their money if it's converted, as in an actual currency exchange like ForEx or NOT AT ALL.

Let me put it another way, and because you've been insulting to anyone who has tried to debate with you nicely, I think you'll probably need to hear it another way considering the words quoted and their application.

Video games.

Many popular video games have in-game virtual currencies which are traded in game. These currencies certainly have real-world value and are indeed purchased and sold online. Sometimes entire game accounts are sold. Does the gubmint get a cut of those transactions IN GAME? Does the gubmint get a cut of the transactions OUTSIDE the game, when real money is exchanged? YES!


There is the distinction!

SO MOTE IT BE!





posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 12:16 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: face23785
Which is probably most of the people buying it.


I would disagree. While it has been demonstrated that their are some truly ignorant people who don't understand investing and/or taxation on gains I think most people buying Bitcoin realize they will need to pay taxes on their gains.


And just how would "gains" be demonstrated...

Not one person i have ever spoken with has paid taxes or ever plans too.

You would be a willing fool to pay taxes on cryptos with no set rules and no legal reason to do so at all.


Only there are set rules and legal reasons.

You can choose not to declare your gains but it's tax evasion same as on any other investment.



How do we calculate "gains" with bitcoin?

It's not a stock, bond, or other financial instrument. It's not a tangible asset like a house or car.

It's a transaction "tool."

If I spend $100 USD to buy some bitcoin. This enables me to buy things with bitcoin. If then bitcoin "goes up" in value, it just means I'd have to spend more than $100 USD to get the same amount of bitcoin next time I needed to make a purchase using bitcoin. It's like buying a foreign currency to pay for goods in that currency.

If I use USD to buy GBP, to buy something in the UK, and the British Pound "goes up" right after I buy it, but before I buy my goods, do I then "declare the gain" to the IRS? I'm still only able to buy the same UK good with my GBP, even though the USD value has increased. So, what's my gain?

See?

Bitcoin is like buying a foreign currency to use in transactions where that currency is accepted.

There's no gain when used that way.

There's only a gain if you're a currency trader, and going back and forth constantly in the currencies, to deliberately profit in your own currency. But, if you're using bitcoin as your primary currency of transactions, there's no gain to report to the IRS.



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 12:57 AM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: face23785
Which is probably most of the people buying it.


I would disagree. While it has been demonstrated that their are some truly ignorant people who don't understand investing and/or taxation on gains I think most people buying Bitcoin realize they will need to pay taxes on their gains.


And just how would "gains" be demonstrated...

Not one person i have ever spoken with has paid taxes or ever plans too.

You would be a willing fool to pay taxes on cryptos with no set rules and no legal reason to do so at all.


Only there are set rules and legal reasons.

You can choose not to declare your gains but it's tax evasion same as on any other investment.



How do we calculate "gains" with bitcoin?

It's not a stock, bond, or other financial instrument. It's not a tangible asset like a house or car.

It's a transaction "tool."

If I spend $100 USD to buy some bitcoin. This enables me to buy things with bitcoin. If then bitcoin "goes up" in value, it just means I'd have to spend more than $100 USD to get the same amount of bitcoin next time I needed to make a purchase using bitcoin. It's like buying a foreign currency to pay for goods in that currency.

If I use USD to buy GBP, to buy something in the UK, and the British Pound "goes up" right after I buy it, but before I buy my goods, do I then "declare the gain" to the IRS? I'm still only able to buy the same UK good with my GBP, even though the USD value has increased. So, what's my gain?

See?

Bitcoin is like buying a foreign currency to use in transactions where that currency is accepted.

There's no gain when used that way.

There's only a gain if you're a currency trader, and going back and forth constantly in the currencies, to deliberately profit in your own currency. But, if you're using bitcoin as your primary currency of transactions, there's no gain to report to the IRS.



Calculating gains with bitcoin is easy as there is a published exchange rate.

I doubt anyone in the US uses bitcoin as there sole means of exchange. Even if they avoided starving to death then they would still need to pay property taxes etc in dolllars.

Regardless tax is still owed on capital gains.

Say you bought 100k worth of bitcoin which then doubled in value to 200k. As soon as you buy something with that, even if the seller accepts payment directly in bitcoin , you are still liable for capital gains tax. (After usual thresholds etc).

If you spend it over multiple small transactions the IRS will happily estimate your gain (and probably not to your advantage) over the year.

It's the same principle regardless of what commodity you use. If you buy a house directly with gold bars you would still be liable for tax on any value increase while you held the gold.

The fact that you consider it a currency is irrelevant as it's not the currency of the US. The exact same would apply if you bought Euro's or Sterling and the value increased.



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 01:36 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus




The problem is people think they shouldn't pay taxes on gains from cryptos. Oh, well, so sad, you do


Dude if you enjoy giving your money away to a nation that supports perpetual war against other nations and its own people go for it..

Would you like their address so that you can make a further donation..



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 01:36 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

It's the same principle regardless of what commodity you use. If you buy a house directly with gold bars you would still be liable for tax on any value increase while you held the gold.

The fact that you consider it a currency is irrelevant as it's not the currency of the US. The exact same would apply if you bought Euro's or Sterling and the value increased.



As far as I know, the IRS does not tax the value of appreciation of goods.

If I buy a car today, and at the end of the year the car is worth more, do I list this value increase on my tax returns?

I don't think so.

If I sell the car, however, at the end of the year, and make a profit from what I bought it for, then, and only then, do I report the "value increase", since it has been "realized" and "turned into cash".

So, if the goods I purchase doesn't get "sold", there's never a tax.

When I buy bitcoin, and then use bitcoin to buy goods, there's no tax, other than whatever sales taxes or vat is involved.

It doesn't matter that bitcoin "went up in value" during the process.

That "rise in value" is just part of the "rise in value of the good" that I'm buying.

Until I sell my goods, there's no "realized gain" to me.

In order to "pay a tax" on my "gain" I'd actually have to "sell my good" to realize the gain in USD, then pay the IRS.

But, no law requires me to sell my good to pay the tax on it's capital appreciation.

So, again, there's no tax in bitcoin transactions, that are not "round trip" currency like trades.




edit on 1-12-2017 by AMPTAH because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 02:03 AM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: ScepticScot

It's the same principle regardless of what commodity you use. If you buy a house directly with gold bars you would still be liable for tax on any value increase while you held the gold.

The fact that you consider it a currency is irrelevant as it's not the currency of the US. The exact same would apply if you bought Euro's or Sterling and the value increased.



As far as I know, the IRS does not tax the value of appreciation of goods.

If I buy a car today, and at the end of the year the car is worth more, do I list this value increase on my tax returns?

I don't think so.

If I sell the car, however, at the end of the year, and make a profit from what I bought it for, then, and only then, do I report the "value increase", since it has been "realized" and "turned into cash".

So, if the goods I purchase doesn't get "sold", there's never a tax.

When I buy bitcoin, and then use bitcoin to buy goods, there's no tax, other than whatever sales taxes or vat is involved.

It doesn't matter that bitcoin "went up in value" during the process.

That "rise in value" is just part of the "rise in value of the good" that I'm buying.

Until I sell my goods, there's no "realized gain" to me.

In order to "pay a tax" on my "gain" I'd actually have to "sell my good" to realize the gain in USD, then pay the IRS.

But, no law requires me to sell my good to pay the tax on it's capital appreciation.

So, again, there's no tax in bitcoin transactions, that are not "round trip" currency like trades.





If the value of an asset increased and you use that asset to buy something directly, even if you never transform it into dollars, than you are still liable for capital gains on the increase.

Tax liability in the US is calculated in dollars even if you don't use them.



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 05:41 AM
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originally posted by: Tempter
And some people think they're smart and look like dumb-asses when attempting to prove so.


I never said you were a dumbass, you shouldn't think that of yourself. You just don't know the subject, it's okay.


Bartering is a joke.

By those all-encompassing words you were so happy to copy-paste into your reply you belie the EXACT REALITY that almost NO ONE does this.


That isn't the point. The point is the IRS requires you to disclose those proceeds and can prosecute you for not doing so, just like with Bitcoin sales proceeds.



If those words were cited by the IRS as an attempt to collect taxes on BT transfers IN THE CHAIN then I could easily counter with selective prosecution and drag this thing out until the public is behind it.


Sure you could. Have fun fighting the IRS. Stay strong brother!


Remember, as the value goes up more and more non-technical or non-financial people will invest.


All that means is the IRS's cut gets bigger too. They don't care who is investing.



Video games.

Many popular video games have in-game virtual currencies which are traded in game. These currencies certainly have real-world value and are indeed purchased and sold online. Sometimes entire game accounts are sold. Does the gubmint get a cut of those transactions IN GAME? Does the gubmint get a cut of the transactions OUTSIDE the game, when real money is exchanged? YES!


We covered this already, if you are profiting off the exchange then you owe taxes.

It's really, really, really simple.



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 05:43 AM
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originally posted by: purplemer
Would you like their address so that you can make a further donation..


I personally would like to give them less but not to the point where I want to risk going to prison by not paying my taxes.

You can get as hysterical as you want that your beloved Bitcoin's sale proceeds are taxable but I am not emotionally attached to my investments.




edit on 1-12-2017 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer because a demon stole it



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 05:45 AM
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originally posted by: JinMI
There will never be a way to trade BTC for USD without the concern of the IRS. So, if folks expect to go forward with the crypto plan, they need to think outside the USD. This IMO will eventually lead to a use tax.


If you are a United States citizen you wont legally be able to trade it or use it for anything if it has appreciated without paying taxes on the gains.



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 06:47 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


But you do have to pay taxes on Bitcoin proceeds. You'd know this if you understood investing. Or tax policy. Which you don't.

I said transactions. Taxes and fees are not collected for that. If you read my post you would know that too.


The IRS isn't attempting to tax transactions which was what you originally claimed.



Yes they will. The Big Banks and the gubment want regulatory control, the banks use the fed to force disclosure of private sales, first.

Then the fed will file charges for income tax evasion for all the transactions to date. Thats how they always take down businesses they don't like.

Income tax evasion.


So you are complaining that bitcoin will get treated exactly like any other investment.


Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. The Emperors face is not on Bitcoin, Bitcoin is not issued by the Fed.

Lol, you want to go after corruption, go after the banks.

As far as digital money you probably have a bank account, just digits in a memory bank.



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 06:50 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus
Because your gains can’t really be converted to the cold hard dollar?
Also - wouldn’t it be a much better idea to pay tax when converting bitcoin to $?

I believe bitcoin should remain the way it has, so we can close down those dirty banks. We don’t need them anymore with the current tech. Also not like banks can keep your money safe anyway. It’s much safer as bitcoin, if only there was an easy way to convert...



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 06:58 AM
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originally posted by: GreenGunther

Because your gains can’t really be converted to the cold hard dollar?


Irrelevant. The IRS only cares if, at the time of sale, that your instrument appreciated in value. If it did you owe taxes on the gains.



posted on Dec, 1 2017 @ 07:51 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


But you do have to pay taxes on Bitcoin proceeds. You'd know this if you understood investing. Or tax policy. Which you don't.

I said transactions. Taxes and fees are not collected for that. If you read my post you would know that too.


The IRS isn't attempting to tax transactions which was what you originally claimed.



Yes they will. The Big Banks and the gubment want regulatory control, the banks use the fed to force disclosure of private sales, first.

Then the fed will file charges for income tax evasion for all the transactions to date. Thats how they always take down businesses they don't like.

Income tax evasion.


So you are complaining that bitcoin will get treated exactly like any other investment.


Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. The Emperors face is not on Bitcoin, Bitcoin is not issued by the Fed.

Lol, you want to go after corruption, go after the banks.

As far as digital money you probably have a bank account, just digits in a memory bank.



US tax law isn't based on biblical quotes.

Most investments are held electronically. Still taxable.



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