Remember when they said Bitcoin was the people's way of challenging the bankers?

a reply to: Generation9

My thoughts:

Of course it will drop! Anyone who is buying shorts will be cashing out in the same breath!

When has Wall St. denied free money?

a reply to: Revolution9

I've changed my mind on this futures contract thing.

There is actually no reason for the bitcoin spot market to take any cues from the Chicago futures traders.

There is no connection in the physical world. None. Bitcoin is not like oil, cattle or gold. Your average person knows nothing about the futures contracts so there is no reason to be pressured by the futures contract pricing. The contract is for delivery of real commodities. Who will deliver? Who is the source of bitcoins to be delivered? Mr. Farmer and Mr. Rancher bring the corn and cattle to Chicago, but who brings the bitcoin?

I now think that the futures contract will begin trading above the spot market. The futures guys think that they nerds will follow along and bid the price up on the bitcoin exchanges. Futures guy thinks he can lead the nerds up higher and higher and then pull the rug out from under them, spark a panic and create a turn in the price trend. Now think about this for a moment... why would the nerds (LOLz) follow the futures dudes up higher and higher? Because that is the correct direction. Duh. Now think about the moment when the futures traders attempt to turn the up trend downward. Think about the nerds. What do they think of the futures traders anyway? So the nerds just keep bidding it up and up. That is what it was designed for -- everybody gets on board and everybody benefits. Bitcoin is meant to go higher and higher. Futures be damned! There is no link between bitcoin futures and bitcoin spot. The decentralized spot market does what it wants to do. Witness the abnormal spread between the U.S. markets and the S. Korean market today. There was something like a $2000 difference in the spot market quotes! Bitcoin does whatever it wants to do. No futures trading manipulation attempt can affect it as long as the majority of holders of bitcoin go along with the bitcoin idea of pricing higher and higher.

a reply to: Revolution9

The bankers are liars. Always have been. Always will be.

And this is what is so threatening about the whole idea.

Bitcoin is like a new type of company that trades shares on an exchange. Only there is no news that can bring it down. No earnings report to bring it down. No futures handle on the price -- only an illusion perpetuated by the Chicago types. Bitcoin does what it wants to do. It is going to go to the Moon.

If the big players who got in at the founding or simply really early actually decide to meet with the Chicago boys and contract to deliver bitcoin 5 coins at a time, then those big players will do it. You can't stop them. But when their supply of bitcoins has been delivered via contract then a new supply will be necessary for the futures game to continue. If all the nerds decide to keep their bitcoins or only trade them on the bitcoin exchanges and NOT DELIVER them to the Chicago boys, then the whole futures game ceases. They can't trade futures contracts if there is no real product to be delivered and the spot market pays no attention to the futures quote anyway.

See?

Bitcoin can't be HANDLED. Ha ha ha! This thing is blowing my mind!!!

a reply to: Generation9

I'm sorry all i heard was blah blah blah. You know why? Because that's how the big boys operate. I guess we're all F''Cked.

Why is it blowing your mind? It's not blowing mine, I knew this was coming. If you believe in Christ, then you shouldn't fear the coming desolation. Right?

a reply to: Sapphire

I'm not sure what you are saying.

All I'm saying is that the futures quote has no real handle on the bitcoin spot price.

If we see the bitcoin futures controlling the bitcoin price then we know something has gone wrong in bitcoin land.

If we see the futures quote having no affect on bitcoin then we know that bitcoin is something very strong.

And yes, that threatens the bankers.

a reply to: Generation9

Hmmm.

originally posted by: Generation9
But when their supply of bitcoins has been delivered via contract then a new supply will be necessary for the futures game to continue.

Why? You can trade the same commodity future over and over and not need any new influx.

a reply to: Generation9

What I'm saying is ... F# The Bankers. And F#Bitcoin. Those bad boys are going down, and they're never getting back up.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Sure, many futures contracts never get to the final point of delivery. The speculators who never wanted delivery in the first place simply offset their position and the bet is off.

But... in order to underwrite the deal from the beginning you must have somebody willing to deliver the product. Farmers bring crops to the auction. Ranchers bring cattle to the Chicago stockyard. Who brings Bitcoin? You know the ones that are in from the founding are holding millions of bitcoin. They are billionaires on paper. They know if they sell too much too quickly the price will fall. They are not willing to wait around 50 years to unload all this bitcoin to the public who will pony up a few hundred dollars at a time. They want to get at that cash as fast as possible. Funny how they want the USD more than the BTC. On the other hand the philosophical bitcoiners support BTC. I am calling them "nerds" for fun with no harmful intention at all. Nerds are going to hold bitcoin and transact bitcoin no matter what the Chicago bankers say the price in Chicago is. The futures could sell down to $5000 and the bitcoin exchanges could drive the price up to $21,000. The BTC folks do not necessarily have to pay any mind at all to the price in Chicago.

Run the scenario.... nerds are trading at $17,000... Chicago says the price is $300.... nerds don't care.

Chicago guys can buy the contract at $300, hold it, take delivery of the 5 bitcoins and then turn and sell the actual bitcoin at the BTC exchanges for what?.... $17,000? Sure. Why not? It is not only Chicago guys, it is everybody and anybody who wants to play that contract and receipt game. You say it is impossible? No. It is not.

Run the scenario.... gold is $1200 an ounce. Online sites or local coin shops or even pawn shops sell one ounce gold coins very near (or actually a bit higher) all day. Now what if Chicago futures made up their mind to trade down to $300 dollars an ounce? The rest of the world would suddenly think the price of gold was $300 an ounce. No "seller" of real gold coins would have to take that offer. They could all simply say they are out of inventory or not selling at that price. In fact, most would rush to buy real gold coins at that price. The rush would drive spot price up and the Chicago guys would have to admit that they got it wrong. Market would snap back into place to match the spot price of an old world commodity with real world connections in world government and economy. Bitcoin has none of this. It is Stateless. Bitcoin has no real link to anything other than the nerds dreaming of a better world. Better how? Better by having more money of course! All bitcoin holders want bitcoin to go higher. So it will go higher. Chicago bankers have no real handle on it. They are going to find out. They will literally have to chase the bitcoin spot price or get trapped into admitting that their own manipulation machine has failed to manipulate bitcoin. This is twisted. We are going to witness something extraordinary. We are going to see something world wide mind blowing!

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Get what I'm saying?

Bitcoin is said to be decentralized and floating in cyberspace and in the minds of the nerds who dream of something different. It is a powerful idea.

And now all of a sudden the Chicago bankers are going to hop up onto a wooden crate and cry out that they have it all under control? Ha ha ha!! That is just ludicrous.

What we might see happen is the founders and early accumulators (or John McAfee and other professional bitcoiners for that matter) who have contracted with the Chicago exchange to supply bitcoins 5 at a time just simply walk away and refuse to offer bitcoin for any further contracts. They'll just take it right back to the BTC exchanges and admit defeat. I repeat THERE IS NO REAL HANDLE ON BITCOIN. It is all in the air. This is precisely why I first called it a scam. I sensed it was a modern global internet penny stock scam such as the type we are all familiar with from the movie Wolf of Wall St.

This time it is different.

Hey, go to CNBC and read what Jim Cramer is saying. He's saying bitcoin is going down. He's badmouthing it. He's ready to take control of the Chicago slaughter houses himself. He's looking for the carnage. These established banking and trading types are scared as hell.

Look, I can spell out one possible doomsday scenario.... on Sunday the futures start trading, they go up or down, doesn't matter which. They wiggle around a bit. The broadcast news crows all day about it. The nerd forums catch fire because of it. All week long the mainstream news blabbers on and on about it. Then suddenly futures stop trading on Friday evening and all the good bankers and traders go on their weekend retreats. Bitcoin never sleeps though. Bitcoin just keeps going. Let us assume the futures traders (with help from their friends in the mainstream media) manage to bludgeon bitcoin down to $10,000 by Friday evening. Then bitcoiners rage over the weekend and drive the spot price up to $21,000 before futures start again on Sunday evening. Then what? All those futures sellers are toast. All those sellers will be called. They'll all be on the extreme wrong side of the trade. Futures immediately snap back up to $21,000 to keep the illusion going and they.... what?.... do it again?.... or do they????

Bitcoin is a system breaking concept. Bitcoin is a verifiable digital weapon for the 21st centruy.

I'm telling you all we are going to see something extraordinary.

Chicago bankers say they got a handle on it.

Nerds claim they control it via BTC exchanges.

Who wins?

Who knows?

This is the sort of thing that will require government intervention. Governments will have to ban bitcoin/cash swaps. At that point it is broken completely free of the "system". No local currency necessary. People will work for bitcoin. It will be a subset of society, yet another real not-so-secret secret society of people who dream the bitcoin dream. They will work for bitcoin and shop with bitcoin in their own bitcoin world.

Already we are seeing government in Europe warn people not to buy bitcoin. The globalists are already running the scare propaganda. The thing damn near sold itself without the need of mainstream media hype. The hype was just done to bring everybody to awareness of bitcoin. They wanted to slaughter it from the beginning as a way of showing who is in control.

Good lord it looks like nerds are in control.

a reply to: Revolution9

Six minutes in theirs a few comments on problems with the Bitcoin Exchanges where people couldn't get their money out. Regarding the futures , which start Sunday basically means the big guys are gambling in it, so it could be pump and dump.

a reply to: Generation9



They could use Bitcoin as an excuse to collapse the economy, the liquidity wasn't there to begin with.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I've been reading some more stuff. Apparently the CME and CBOE futures are cash-settled with no delivery of real bitcoin. There has been talk of creating futures that deliver bitcoin, but the contracts that start trading Sunday are the cash-settled type.

So there is basically no connection at all between the Chicago scheme and the trading of actual bitcoins for cash. There is no way that the horde of bitcoiners are going to pay attention to the Chicago quote. I stand by my prediction that the futures market will be unable to control the bitcoin "price". Bitcoin is in cyberspace and the minds of the bitcoiners.

Also, I find it interesting that the actual price of bitcoin has little to do with the utility of bitcoin as a transaction network. If bit coin is priced at $16,000 I can send you $8000 with half a bitcoin. If bitcoin is priced at $4000 I can send you $8,000 by sending you two bitcoins. The price doesn't change bitcoin's utility as a transaction network. The weird issue is the volatility of the bitcoin "price". Heck, bitcoin price doesn't matter unless you are looking to increase your own net worth while holding bitcoin.

There must be something super useful that the blockchain can do other than just send "money". What could be the ultimate worth of bitcoin? This is very puzzling.

originally posted by: Generation9
Run the scenario.... nerds are trading at $17,000... Chicago says the price is $300.... nerds don't care.

Where are you getting that $300 price from?

originally posted by: Generation9
Get what I'm saying?

No, because you seem to be very emotionally invested in this product.

originally posted by: Generation9
What could be the ultimate worth of bitcoin?

The same as anything else, what someone is willing to pay you for it.