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Canadians apparently dream of building a better MIG 31

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posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: Trillium

The SR-71 was introduced in the mid 1960s, but the A-12 was ordered in 1960, and competed against the Convair Kingfish in 1959. The A-12 was part of the CIA Archangel program to produce something that could perform overflights at high speed with a lower RCS than the U-2.


After a year of discussion with aviation companies
beginning in the late summer of 1956, CIA focused its
attention on building a jet that could fly at extremely
high speeds and altitudes while incorporating
state-of-the-art techniques in radar absorption or
deflection. This effort was codenamed GUSTO. In
the fall of 1957, U-2 project manager Richard Bissell
established an advisory committee to help select a
design for the U-2’s successor.



Convair and Lockheed completed new proposals
in August 1959. Convair’s entry, known as the
KINGFISH, was a ground-launched, single-pilot jet
with two Pratt & Whitney J58 engines—the most
powerful available—and a small RCS. Lockheed’s
design, the A-12, also would use the J58 engines.
It would reach Mach 3.2 at up to 97,600 feet and
have a range of around 4,600 miles. To save weight,
Johnson decided not to construct the aircraft out of
steel. Because standard lightweight metals such as
aluminum could not withstand the heat generated at
Mach 3 speeds, Johnson chose a titanium alloy. The
A-12’s design incorporated a continuously curving
airframe, a forebody with tightly slanted edges
called chines, engine housings (nacelles) located
mid-wing, canted rudders, and nonmetallic parts
to decrease the RCS. A cesium fuel additive would
reduce the radar detectability of the afterburner
plume.

www.cia.gov...
edi t on 11/25/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 11:27 AM
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a reply to: Trillium

The Archangel program was underway at the same time as the Arrow program. The Arrow didn't have anything to do with the A-12, which was the lead in for the SR-71.



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 11:31 AM
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a reply to: Zaphod58


The J75 had a dry thrust of 76.5 kN (7,800 kgp / 17,200 lbf) and an afterburning thrust of 109 kN (11,110 kgp / 24,500 lbf). The Iroquois was the most powerful engine in North America, with a dry thrust of 82.4 kN (8,400 kgp / 18,500 lbf) and an afterburning thrust of 115.8 kN (11,800 kgp / 26,000 lbf). It had an unprecedented 5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, achieved partly by extensive use of titanium. The Iroquois was ground-tested in 1955. In 1957, the US Air Force loaned a B-47E Stratojet bomber to the Canadians for a flight-test platform. The engine was bolted to the side of the aircraft, near the tail; the lopsided bomber was apparently something of a handful to fly. Some snags were encountered in testing, but in general the engine development effort went well. The Iroquois was removed from the B-47E after the completion of trials, and the bomber was returned to the United States. However, apparently its airframe had been warped by the asymmetric thrust of the Iroquois, and the aircraft was scrapped. Interestingly, this particular B-47E was the only American strategic jet bomber that was ever operated by a foreign country.


Airvetor.net



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: Trillium

Yes, you posted that already. It doesn't prove anything.

The B-47 that was used was flown by Canadair, over Canada, and was a B-47B, not an E. The testing wasn't in the US. The aircraft was returned to the US after the testing and scrapped. It was designated the CL-52 in Canadian service, and was the only B-47 ever operated by a foreign military.


In 1956, the USAF loaned B-47B serial number 51-2059 to the Royal Canadian Air Force for use as a flying test bed for the 20,000 lb. static thrust Orenda Iroquois turbojet. A pair of Iroquois engines were to power the projected Avro CF-105 Arrow long-range interceptor, which was currently under development in Canada. After delivery, the RCAF turned the plane over to Canadair, Ltd. to complete the required modifications. A separate pod for the test engine was installed on the starboard side of the rear fuselage underneath the horizontal tail. The pod was 30 feet long and about six feet in diameter. The company assigned its own model number of CL-52 to the project. The CL-52/B-47B flew in RCAF markings, but retained the last three digits of its USAF serial number, which followed the prefix "X" to become the RCAF serial number.

The CL-52 spent a total of 31 hours in the air with the Iroquois engine.

After the termination of the Arrow/Iroquois program, the Iroquois engine was removed from the CL-52 and the aircraft was returned to the USA. The plane was scrapped at Davis-Monthan AFB shortly thereafter.

www.avroland.ca...
edit on 11/25/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 11:44 AM
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An automatic flight control system (AFCS) was developed that could operate in several modes, and in principle could even land the Arrow automatically or compensate for severe damage to the aircraft. Control surfaces were hydraulically operated and electronically controlled; the Arrow was one of the first "fly-by-wire" aircraft ever built.

The armament system was devised as a replaceable pack that could be plugged into the aircraft's big weapons bay, which was 5.5 meters (18 feet) long. This allowed different weapons systems or fuel tanks to be fitted as required, with all armament carried internally.


Link



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 11:50 AM
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a reply to: Trillium

Yes, the Arrow was a hell of a plane, no one denies that. And cancelling it was an unwise decision. But that doesn't prove that it's the greatest interceptor ever, or that it had anything to do with the SR-71.



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 11:52 AM
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originally posted by: Daalder
a reply to: Fools

Why would they develop anything when a Saab, Dassault, Eurofighter etc. can be bought?
7.8 billion buys you a 100 Dassault Rafale that do the job pretty good I suppose.
And I'm sure France wouldn't oppose to that deal.

Developing your own system would create jobs and know-how.

In the end it will of course depend on how many units you want to build and whether you have the finances for it.



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 11:58 AM
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a reply to: moebius

At this point, Canada would be better off license building something to start off with. Their aerospace industry isn't what it used to be and has taken some serious hits in recent years. If they license build something, they can build it back up to where they can design and build their own again.



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 12:03 PM
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Will be better money spent in Canada



Arrow



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 12:09 PM
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One way to modernize it would be to take a "clean sheet" design and reimagine the Arrow for the 21st century. Artist Joe Green has done this with his concept, The Super Arrow.



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 12:43 PM
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Alot off good info comment Here



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 12:57 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: moebius

At this point, Canada would be better off license building something to start off with. Their aerospace industry isn't what it used to be and has taken some serious hits in recent years. If they license build something, they can build it back up to where they can design and build their own again.



The Blackbird is faster than the Avro, but The Blackbird SR 71 design was started in September of 1959, after the Arrow cancellation. Avro had a design for a Ramjet assisted aircraft that would have reached the speeds and altitude of the SR 71. They also provided the US with information about designing an advanced Arrow capable of speeds like those of the SR 71. The SR 71 was designed by the Lockheed Skunkworks. After the cancellation some Avro engineers ended up working on the blackbird.


Link



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 01:55 PM
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a reply to: Trillium

Yes, some Avro engineers ended up at Lockheed, but why wouldn't they? Once the Arrow ended, it's not like there were a lot of aerospace opportunities in Canada anymore.

The Lockheed A-12 was designed through the Archangel program, and was selected by the CIA for overflights of other countries as a replacement/complement to the U-2 in 1959. The Archangel program ran in the 1950s, at the same time that the Arrow was being developed.

Now what does the A-12 remind you of? The SR-71 wasn't developed until the 1960s, after the Arrow, but it was built off the A-12, not the Avro Arrow. The SR-71 was an enlarged version of the A-12, to allow for a systems operator to sit behind the pilot. It was larger, heavier, slightly slower, and had a lower ceiling than the A-12, but it had nothing to do with the Arrow, contrary to what Canadian pride wants to believe.

A-12 60-6924:


edit on 11/25/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11/25/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2017 @ 02:39 PM
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originally posted by: Trillium

originally posted by: CrapAsUsual
a reply to: Fools

The AVRO Arrow was possibly the best plane of its day. The US killed it while it was a baby.


Ya and 90% off the engineer and technology went down south
to build the SR 71


Which bits? Must be why they look so similar...

The trans- and supersonic properties of the delta wing pioneered a decade earlier by Lippisch and Jones in Germany and the US respectively? The variable-ramp intakes used much earlier which were abandoned for shock cones on the Archangel designs? The RCS-reduction techniques absent in the Arrow?

I love the Arrow, and it's a pity they recycled them (though the dollars would've made operation short lived, I'd think), but there is far more of the earlier NA Viggie in the Arrow than Arrow in the SR-71 or A-12.
edit on 25-11-2017 by RadioRobert because: (no reason given)



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