Is God a narcissistic bastard?

If you are truely sorry for your sins then God will forgive you. My religion teacher once said " Dont be surprised if you see Hitler there." At first I didnt understand, but now I know. Like I said if you are truely sorry God will forgive you, but if you are just asking forgiveness because youre afraid youll go to Hell then no He will not forgive you. If Hitler was truely sorry( not saying that he was or anything. I dont know) then God would have forgiven him. Understand now?

Originally posted by mark ten
ShadowXIX

boo hiss ! ...god is not playing fair...

there should be a tick sheet somewhere saying how many club points you get for each good work

damned if i'm going to help another old lady across the street til i get my reward card [this is for uk posters don't know if you have them in u.s. sry]

I think doing it like that would be fair. You cant expect Moses to be treated the same as say Hitler if he repented all his sins and found god before he died and got let into Heaven.

If anyone knows about any clear bible references to this difference of treatment in heaven, that would be interesting. I have never heard any.

It still doesn't answer the question about the fate of the "good atheist" though.

Originally posted by gekko
It still doesn't answer the question about the fate of the "good atheist" though.

As long as they lead a good life and didnt break any commandments then they would be let into heaven. As long as they first say there is a God

Originally posted by gekko
If anyone knows about any clear bible references to this difference of treatment in heaven, that would be interesting. I have never heard any.

I had a earlier post showing that you get different types of rewards (Crowns) for some deeds. Not everyone that goes to heaven gets these. So that is a difference in treatment right there.

Really I dont remember it saying everyone was treated the same in heaven

Also though I dont know as much about the Koran I believe there is also rewards for different deeds in Islam.

[edit on 12-2-2005 by ShadowXIX]



[edit on 12-2-2005 by ShadowXIX]

You guys are not getting what im saying.

Whoever is sincere, would be interested in where they were going after death. What sincere person would be on a deathbed
and staring eternity in the face, and completely ignore thinking about God or their existence?



I know grekko you gave me an example that was laid down, but it is irrelevant because if that person did exist you never know if God would through his grace convert their soul before death.


God knows his children, and he leads them to hm. not one cild of his will he not lead to him. How do you think its different with atheist? Sincere atheist? How can they be sincere and see all these miracles around them through creation, the world ect and still
not be sincere enough to search for God?


If you are searching you will find, not one soul who (truly) searches is left behind, only those who don't even care for searching are left behind through
their own fault.


Also we believe in purgatory, a place of punishment for sins we commited on earth, for payment of those sins. So if the rapest did repent he wuld most likely be paying for a long time in purificaton through purgatory.


We just think differently gekko on this. I believe any soul who is sincere including atheist God would go out of his way to reveal himself to them and give them the grace of final repentance.



peace.

ShadowXIX

Crowns...

Is that like the stars i used to get working for MacDonalds?


Seriously, if this *crowns* system were true don't you think the church, in this age of reward cards would be pushing it? Yours is the first i've ever heard of some sort of differentiation scheme in heaven.

How many crowns do you get per person converted?

How does Billy Graham's tally stand? Persons converted vs. grand larceny?

Is it a + and - scheme?

Originally posted by mark ten
ShadowXIX

Crowns...

Is that like the stars i used to get working for MacDonalds?


Seriously, if this *crowns* system were true don't you think the church, in this age of reward cards would be pushing it? Yours is the first i've ever heard of some sort of differentiation scheme in heaven.

Its a often ignored aspect but its in there. Why is it ignored so often? I have no clue.

Rev. 22:12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

While salvation is a gift, there are rewards given for faithfulness in the Christian life and loss of rewards for unfaithfulness

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Rev. 22:12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

OK, I like that. Perhaps the child-molester has it coming. Although in the space of two thick books it doesn't seem to be given much space compared to the importance of worship.

It still leaves the question of wether the good atheist is going to hell. The bible seems to be pretty clear on it, and no one has come up with an argument against it. I still assume that a good, merciful, giving, kind and tolerant nonbeliever will be punished for eternity by God for the sin of not worshiping him.

As I said before; that is not a God I would want to give my praises to.

Truth, you seem to doubt that an atheist can be pure at heart in the first place, and that is the core of the problem. Deep down, christianity holds to the belief that you cant be good if your not a christian.

Thats pretty, uh, narcissistic.

I fail to see the problem with a simple request to serve in your best ability, give your love to God freely and ask for forgivness , its a simple request and we all know the options if we choose to deny God the simple requests he makes in the sight of all he has done then so be it you chose your destination. noone put a gun to your head, and by the way the most holy of people harbor secrets and lies, but that doesnt make them Gods accepted, by actions no flesh shall be justified you can do good all your life , but fail to give the simplest thing thought and you go the way you chose, dont blame God.


I have done so many things that I should be a poster child for hell , but I worry not because I chose to give faith ,love and honor to God and asked for forgivness, and you know what I will still answer to the charges , but I am not worried , I screwed up not God , that's why I asked for forgivness.

You fail to se the problem because you believe you have seen god yourself. Far from everyone has, including lots of good people. I have been looking for years and nothing has ever, even remotely, suggested that the christian god makes more sense than any other religion, or science for that matter.

You say that people will burn in hell because they fail to worship something that hasn't shown itself to them? You see yourself as one of the lucky chosen ones, and you have no regrets that everyone else will burn in hell. That is slightly lacking in empathy for other people, dont you think?

Originally posted by gekko
You fail to se the problem because you believe you have seen god yourself. Far from everyone has, including lots of good people. I have been looking for years and nothing has ever, even remotely, suggested that the christian god makes more sense than any other religion, or science for that matter.

Never have I laid eyes on God he gets my love and faith and request for forgiveness because I accept him sight unseen , I dont need proof , however I have seen that praying on specific items have brought requested soluitions , so if God dont exist then why is it when I prayed about something it happened not once not twice but many times and I am not even worthy of what I have recieved in my mind I am further from the path of God then I should be and I know in my heart I dont deserve any of what I got. After all I didnt work to get it it just came from simple faith.

You say that people will burn in hell because they fail to worship something that hasn't shown itself to them? You see yourself as one of the lucky chosen ones, and you have no regrets that everyone else will burn in hell. That is slightly lacking in empathy for other people, dont you think?

You get according to your own design is all Im saying. your choices are what make opr break you even without including God in the senario, I can put it this way Say you walk into a bank and make a deposit and the guy next to you decides to make a with drawl using a 44 magnum like dirty harry or something , and neither of you before that day have ever been in trouble and wouldnt know a jail from a barn , should you go to jail to for doing what is expected of you and not breaking the law or should the person breaking the law go to jail.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
Never have I laid eyes on God he gets my love and faith and request for forgiveness because I accept him sight unseen , I dont need proof , however I have seen that praying on specific items have brought requested soluitions , so if God dont exist then why is it when I prayed about something it happened not once not twice but many times and I am not even worthy of what I have recieved in my mind I am further from the path of God then I should be and I know in my heart I dont deserve any of what I got. After all I didnt work to get it it just came from simple faith.

When I was a kid, I got presents from Santa every year. That does not prove the existence of Santa.

You get according to your own design is all Im saying. your choices are what make opr break you even without including God in the scenario, I can put it this way Say you walk into a bank and make a deposit and the guy next to you decides to make a with drawl using a 44 magnum like dirty harry or something , and neither of you before that day have ever been in trouble and wouldnt know a jail from a barn , should you go to jail to for doing what is expected of you and not breaking the law or should the person breaking the law go to jail.

I have read this a few times now and I still fail to see what you are trying to say. How does it tie in with worshiping god or not?

But Gekko that is the point it is your chose to believe in it or not. You in the same token can not tell me he doesnt exist either. But dont call somones beliefs narcisisstic because you either dont agree or believe, let me put it this way , rather than make comments like yours I went to the source of a religion from which the extreamist originated and with all honesty asked to have beheadings being justified explained, and never once did I call their God a murderer for supposedly incouraging this, it turned out in fact to not be turn in the mainstream and was only the beliefs of those who spoke it. but that doesnt negate the validity of their version of God and so should it be for any version of God , God is what you believe him to be in the best effort to understand with out seeing or having tangible tissue to touch. That doesnt make God narcasisstic because if you dont want to go the way he asks, you are the designer of the end of your own journey not God, dont blame him for your choices when he decides you didnt do what he asked you to do. Blame yourself call yourself narcisisstic,not him.



and the second question you asked how does what I said tie in , it is another way to say the descision is your and yours alone basically.

OK drbryankkruta, I got a bit carried away. I apologize for suggesting that you are narcissistic.

You are however not answering the original question. You sidestep it by saying its a personal choice. Fair enough, but that leaves the good guy burning nevertheless. If this is your vision of a merciful god, there is not much I can say.

I do appreciate your efforts to justify god, but the fact remains. A good man is burning for eternity. Not for doing bad stuff, but for lack of worship.

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Satellite footage of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.


When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if He is there, He says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know Him?

And here are the reasons to consider

Originally posted by gekko
OK drbryankkruta, I got a bit carried away. I apologize for suggesting that you are narcissistic.

You are however not answering the original question. You sidestep it by saying its a personal choice. Fair enough, but that leaves the good guy burning nevertheless. If this is your vision of a merciful god, there is not much I can say.

who says he is such a good guy you seem to be missing the point even the best of the best do something wrong in their life and if they choose not to repent then thats on them , That good guy failed in his simplest task in concern to God. What is it that cant be understood the evil deed doing guy did as he was supposed to do why shouldnt he be given forgiveness he chose to appologize and ask for forgivness , why didnt the so called good guy who is a sinner also according to God all men are born to an earth of sins and they will sin, so why didnt the so called good guy repent for that sinful white lie he told as a child , or that stick of gum he took or for that matter the failure of that man to follow any of the rule at some point in his life, yes he may have been the best guy in the world winner of every kind of peace prize but did he ask for forgiveness for that Childhood mistake he made before he did all this good.

I do appreciate your efforts to justify god, but the fact remains. A good man is burning for eternity. Not for doing bad stuff, but for lack of worship.

Again according to who an inperfect being who judges from actions not the heart and mind, This guy could have been a saint in public and went home and sinned and noone ever saw it but God, your perception is flawed there is noone on earth than can say with 100% surety that this man didnt even sin one time, and one time is all it takes to have to ask for forgivness.

Originally posted by Truth

Anybody who is truly sincere at death god knows. if a pagan thinks is is his own goodness seeing himself as God, what should the real god think?


what would you do gekko if you had a child, and he grew up not even recognizing you existed? instead of calling you dad he ignored you?



None of us know Gods mind nor the mind of any of these men.


Do you think that a rapest who sincerely repents will not have to pay his dues? Don't you realize that evil is a possesion from our own sins. if the man commited one act of rape, and was truly sorry for it than God would know this. Likewise if the (good) pagan
thougt he was better than everybody deep down, which we don't know, we only see wats on the outside, and at his death denied God and where he would be spending eternity than he should be forgotten.


See, what is good to you, is only know on the outside. We do not search hearts, and until we do this topic is irrelevant to us, not to God.




peace.

no offence intended but would hold the same opinion that the childmolester was a person who abused YOUR child? If god forgave this person, you would also have to forgive the man who tortured that member of your family or go to hell, so it is now a case of either you forgive the child molester for abusing your child or YOU will go to hell for not sharing gods belief.... In my opinion that's sick, but so are a lot of the child molesting priests and vicars out there.

[edit on 13/2/05 by Klepto]

TrueLies:
Thanks for your input, but this thread isn't really about wether god exists or not. Its about what kind of god he is if he does.

Having said that, I am an agnostic. I am open to all possibilities. But so far nothing I have been shown proves the existence of god. The link you provided is a perfect example. They say this and that MUST have been created by god. Not so. In an infinite universe everything is possible.

drbryankkruta:
Oh man, I hate repeating myself...

You seem to be a nice guy, but you christians are obviously not reading the posts. I have already been trough all of this with Truth.

Originally posted by gekko
Mate, they are not real men. They are an examples. As I created the example, their mindsets is up to me. Read the posts.

In the example, he is without sin. And even if he rang someones doorbell and ran for it as a kid, should he burn in hell for that? And the child rapist goes to a toned down heaven???

Oh man, that is so wrong... Sorry guys, Im off to look at Buddhism.




[Typo edit]

[edit on 13/2/05 by gekko]

I think many of us can't answer the question definitively, as we are not God himself.

YES, I struggle with these questions. I don't like to think that horrible people can make it into heaven and I would hate to think pretty decent people might not

I do believe in God. I do believe Jesus died for our sins and I have asked for forgiveness. I can worry about myself and my family. I can give my opinion when asked for or when the situation seems right

Gekko, people ARE answering your question. It just isn't what you want to hear. Our society has this illusion of life being fair. If two people were running a race, and the faster person crossed the wrong finish line, would you give him the prize because he was faster, or the person who stayed on the track and crossed the right finish line?? Would that make the rule maker a narcissistic bastard to award it to the person who followed the correct path? The other guy really WAS faster. Who wins??

I know that is not a great analogy, but it is the best I can come up with.

You have to seek for truth yourself. If you are anything like me, you can rationalize the answers you WANT, but there is always a tiny nagging voice you can barely hear, that is easy to drown out the RIGHT answer. I am a master of believing and following what I want to believe.

Deep down I know what is right. Though I can shut up that voice.