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Is God a narcissistic bastard?

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posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 05:53 PM
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According to the bible - to go to heaven you just need to to seek forgiveness for your sins and profess yourself to God. If you don't, you will go to hell.

Simple enough, but there is a catch. Say we have two guys:

One has spent his life molesting children, killing and lying to get his will. On his deathbed he fears the consequences of his actions. He prays to God, receives forgiveness and goes to heaven.

The other guy has dedicated his life to helping other people. On his dying bed he knows he has done what he can for humanity, leaving his meager possessions to charity. He has never believed in God however so he goes straight to hell.

The only thing that seems to matter to God is if you worship him or not. Worshiping God is more important than your actions on earth. If you confess to your sins, and worship him before you die you're fine.

Does this sound like a good God? I think it sounds more like the traits of a narcissistic bastard.

I am not saying this is how it works, it's mealy the impression I was left with after being taught christianity in school. But if it's so, it's certainly not a god I would want to worship.



britannica.com
Narcissism: "...an exaggerated sense of self-importance, and a need for attention and admiration from others."


Sounds familiar?




posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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This is EXACTLY the problem I have with Christianity, if the Bible is to be bwlieved this is EXACTLY what would happen. It doesnt matter if you are a wonderful giving kind selfless person or and baby-raping serial killer as long as you believe



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:08 PM
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I'm not sure that it's that you 'believe' but that you genuinely 'repent and believe' and thus any future actions are judged accordingly.
I sound like an accountant don't I...



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:08 PM
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I do have a hard time with this question too. Likely the first guy wouldn't really and truly ask forgiveness for what he has done. He might be afraid of the consequences, but I think you truly have to WANT saving, to be saved in that situation.

The second guy, I don't know. I guess it depends on if he knew yet rejected God.

Questions I am not qualified to even guess at. I just will live my life well and believe in God and that Jesus died for my sins. It seems to work for me.

I guess this question is something that will be answered after we die.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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Ah but there are rewards waiting in heaven according to the bible. The quick death bed repentance will not win you any of these.

THE SOUL-WINNER'S CROWN - to people who labored to save souls from the fires of hell. 1 Thessalonians 2:19: "You are our hope, our joy, and the crown we will take pride in when our Lord Jesus Christ comes."

THE CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS - for those who look for and love Christ's return. 2 Timothy 4:8: "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing."

THE CROWN OF GLORY - for those who faithfully teach and preach God's Word.1 Peter 5:4: "And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away."

THE INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN - for those who "run a good race" in the Christian life. 1 Corinthians 9:25: "And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown."

THE CROWN OF LIFE - for people who endure suffering, knowing there is a better life in the world to come. James 1:12: "Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because on becoming approved he will receive the Crown of Life."

Not sure what these Crowns are exactly but just getting into heaven doesn't seem to get you one.

www.raptureready.com...



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:22 PM
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Gods knows whos sincere. If the murderer/rapist repented but was not sincere, then he would know it.

How could you guys still judge the first man after sincere repentance when we have no clue if hes sincere, only God?


How come when christians judge this kind of sin, we are called insane, even though we are only stating consequences of sin, yet if someone who thinks Gods a narcissist says why does God let
them into heaven hes applauded? The same man we would condemn for his sins, you condemn God for forgiving them, the exact opposite of eternal punishment. isnt that all loving and merciful?



I think if the second guy never gave credit to his good works to God who saved him, and had no recognition of God at his death bed, tha I think God would forget him. Nobody in here knows why people do good works, some do it for pride. For all you know this same man could of had five different wives, and commited
all sorts of sins behind closed doors.


Only God knows whos sncere behind closed doors, none of us do.


peace.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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Had an idea that the bible is a biography (or auto biography...) of god.
In Genesis he's like a little kid, playing with toys, or else making castles in his sandpit, but like a child with no parental influence no-one is there to tell him right from wrong...
So after messing around with adam for a bit and making really child-like *hard* rules (if you've got kids you'll know how hard their game rules are) he grows up into the really messed up adolescent of the later part of the OT :hissy fits, plagues, rains of fire, killing every firstborn son of egypt for *christs* sake but by the NT he's settled down, had a kid, sent him out into the world. He can get on with reading the paper, going to the office a little later maybe thinking about retirement and before he knows it Nietzsche comes along and he's dead
just a thought



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:26 PM
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mark ten and llpoolej:
I assume that the first guy "really and truly ask forgiveness". Improbable perhaps, but not impossible. I think you see what I mean.

ShadowXIX:
I truly appreciate responses for those who has read the bible more extensively than me, but without an explanation for what you think it means its only gibberish to me. Does it mean that you could go to heaven, an still not have a good time? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of heaven?

Anyway, all of you, thanks for your input so far.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:31 PM
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There is an Arthur C Clarke story about this but as usual i've read far to much SF to remember the title...

but in the end, at the pearly gates the guy who's done good elects to have his soul dispersed back to earth in a karmic way to help all those alive rather then take his just rewards in heaven and really how could any christian chose otherwise...

damn my alcohol addled memory



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:38 PM
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Truth:
Again, I assume that the first guy "really and truly ask forgiveness".

I also assume the second guy is truly a good guy. No skeletons in the closet.

I am not condemning God. I only state my impression of how it works. If I am right (which I hope I'm not
) then he is truly worth of condemning in my opinion.

How can you say a deity, who prefers a converted child molester and killer over a "pagan" who is pure at heart, is good and just?



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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gekko

from gods POV (what an assumption that is!) the child molester who truly repented and came into the 'circle of trust' is blessed and will continue to carry out god's works and will (according to Jesus' two commandments) bring more converts to the fold...

whereas the pagan, lovely person that he is, fails to enlighten anybody with the holy spirit so he can just about sod off when it come to redemption day...

hmmm... i can see where you're coming from...



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by mark ten
from gods POV (what an assumption that is!) the child molester who truly repented and came into the 'circle of trust' is blessed and will continue to carry out god's works and will (according to Jesus' two commandments) bring more converts to the fold...


Well, as he is dying, he isn't really going to do even that.
I do believe that a person who has done bad stuff can redeem himself, but it has to happen in this life. More like a karma thing really...



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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God has the right to judge, but the only guaranteed thing is death for the first guy, the monster, and for the second guy, I don't think he goes to hell for just not accepting the existence of god, he has no sins, since no death penalty for him.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 07:02 PM
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Anybody who is truly sincere at death god knows. if a pagan thinks is is his own goodness seeing himself as God, what should the real god think?


what would you do gekko if you had a child, and he grew up not even recognizing you existed? instead of calling you dad he ignored you?



None of us know Gods mind nor the mind of any of these men.


Do you think that a rapest who sincerely repents will not have to pay his dues? Don't you realize that evil is a possesion from our own sins. if the man commited one act of rape, and was truly sorry for it than God would know this. Likewise if the (good) pagan
thougt he was better than everybody deep down, which we don't know, we only see wats on the outside, and at his death denied God and where he would be spending eternity than he should be forgotten.


See, what is good to you, is only know on the outside. We do not search hearts, and until we do this topic is irrelevant to us, not to God.




peace.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 07:18 PM
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Truth

interesting reply...

you say that god knows whether someone on their death bed has truly repenteted and, of course, he does; but then you say that he will pay later (in heaven?) How can this be either
i) just
ii) supported with scripture

alas my own quotable scripture is woefully poor...

surely if the child-molester has truly repented then he WILL enter the kingdom of heaven whereas the poor atheist with the blameless life devoted to public works and self effacement is to put it mildly b*ggered

however i now see the point of gekko's post....

what would be the point of an athiest entering the kingdom of heaven on the back of his perfect life? He wouldn't enjoy it cos it would be full of christians.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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Truth

...and while i'm responding to your reference your allusions to gekko's children and their rejection of him...

does a father have to automatically love and forgive their children *no matter what they do*? Really? Forgive Anything?

does this mean ...and this doesn't mean i want you to ignore my previous points.... that god forgives Satan aka the devil aka Lucifer



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by mark ten
what would be the point of an athiest entering the kingdom of heaven on the back of his perfect life? He wouldn't enjoy it cos it would be full of christians.


Think he would enjoy roasting in flames for eternity better?

You avoid the question around and around.

If a GOOD man who is giving, kind, helpful, a regular saint and his only crime is he didnt grovel before the right god dies he burns for eternity, right?

He is no secert nothing, a good man. Period.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by gekko

ShadowXIX:
I truly appreciate responses for those who has read the bible more extensively than me, but without an explanation for what you think it means its only gibberish to me. Does it mean that you could go to heaven, an still not have a good time? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of heaven?



I think these rewards imply that everyone is not treated the same in heaven but they are treated in accordance with their deeds on earth. I think heaven is heaven but not all are are equal in heaven.

Even the Angels seem to be made up of classes and Ranks. There are many rooms in the Father's home but I guess there are some better then others.

Im not a expert on the bible but thats the way I see it.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 07:39 PM
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ShadowXIX

boo hiss ! ...god is not playing fair...

there should be a tick sheet somewhere saying how many club points you get for each good work

damned if i'm going to help another old lady across the street til i get my reward card [this is for uk posters don't know if you have them in u.s. sry]

amuk

i was joking about the atheist in heaven...



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 07:45 PM
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Truth, you keep ignoring what's in my posts and interpret them to suit your own viewpoint. If this is how you read the bible I can easily understand how you can't see any problems with it.



Anybody who is truly sincere at death god knows. if a pagan thinks is is his own goodness seeing himself as God, what should the real god think?


I never implied that the nonbeliever thought he was better than God. That's your words.



what would you do gekko if you had a child, and he grew up not even recognizing you existed? instead of calling you dad he ignored you?


Well, to make a fair comparison, I would have had to abandon him at birth, leaving him a text saying that he would have to seek me out if he wanted to know me. And if he did find me I would judge if I thought he was worthy of me or not.

This is not my standards of good parenthood.



None of us know Gods mind nor the mind of any of these men.


Mate, they are not real men. They are an examples. As I created the example, their mindsets is up to me. Read the posts.



Do you think that a rapest who sincerely repents will not have to pay his dues?


Thats what it seems like the bible is saying. Just believe and repent sincerity, and you're off to heaven.



Don't you realize that evil is a possesion from our own sins. if the man commited one act of rape, and was truly sorry for it than God would know this.


Committed one act of rape? I said he was a serial child rapist and a killer. Are you making excuses for him? No wonder pedophiles are attracted to positions in the clergy.



Likewise if the (good) pagan thougt he was better than everybody deep down, which we don't know, we only see wats on the outside, and at his death denied God and where he would be spending eternity than he should be forgotten.


I didn't say he thought he was better than anyone. That's your words. He was in peace with himself, knowing he had led a life helping others.



See, what is good to you, is only know on the outside. We do not search hearts, and until we do this topic is irrelevant to us, not to God.


What do you mean with this? If you don't search your heart, thats your problem mate. I know I search mine, daily.



peace.


One thing we agree on, thats good.

Peace



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