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WHATABOUTISM, Old Soviet Propaganda Made New Again by Trump

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posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 04:48 PM
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a reply to: soberbacchus

A thread started about Trumps deflection tactics used by Soviet era media control through propaganda ...

And it was turned into a political mud pit of left vrs right.

Seems to me Trumps tactic worked. He does something insane, no problem, just get a bunch of over zealous followers to start blaming the 'other guys'.
edit on 20-11-2017 by strongfp because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 05:00 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

If you're going to act like this isnt the bread & butter of everyday left vs. right politics then you yourself are the epitome of what you just said.




posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 05:15 PM
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originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: strongfp

If you're going to act like this isnt the bread & butter of everyday left vs. right politics then you yourself are the epitome of what you just said.



Just pointing out the obvious. Seems a lot of people around here don't see what's literally right in front of their eyes.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 05:55 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

Go open any "Hillary is a such & such" thread from a year ago and watch them deflect with "but but but Trump".

And vice versa.

It's such an expected "sport" that many threads often feature within the first few posts a prediction that a deflection is imminent. I've even seen it happen where the next post was just that, meaning as the predictor was typing that so was the deflector. LOL!

Meaning to start a thread framed entirely like its just one team doing it is ridiculously hypocritical (which is the very essence of the subject).



edit on 20-11-2017 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 06:46 PM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Yes, most of us here have seen it day in and out. But guess who is the president now, and guess who was around when all this "LEFT vrs RIGHT" BS started, Trump. There is no coincidence that he is literally directly connected to what has happened to politics.

I like to call out the idiots fighting over the extreme poles of the political spectrum. But this one subject seems to have Trump smeared all over it. What other president has used these tactics before? If there is, I can bet you can predict Trumps playbook right down to his useless speeches.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 06:57 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

Again, you're acting like Trump invented leftVright bickering.

Calling out all the politicians of both sides he was doing since Twitter became a thing.

Then he came in and has had the most monumental smear campaign against him in human history, by the entirety of aspects of the Two Party + MSM + IC System.

And now that he's been on a perpetual cycle of offense defense, now all the sudden he's the inventor of political deflection?

Are you seriously going to argue that Bush never deflected onto Clinton, that Obama never deflected onto Bush?

If you're going to keep it centered on the POTUS' themselves. From there its a bottomless downward spiral of a rabbithole of people from every partisan side surely in human history deflecting the ills of Us onto Them.
edit on 20-11-2017 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 07:11 PM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

He's still directly connected. You are blabbing on about stuff I already know. And you are ignoring the point I am getting across to you.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 07:17 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

I've never denied he's a piece of work, but to act like he's the first POTUS ever to deflect, that the right wing media is the first ever to deflect, that the right wing voters were the first to deflect, is akin to Christian's acting like Muslim's invented public stonings (which funnily enough the never ending smear campaign against him like Oliver here is akin to just that: a grand scale one sided public stoning).
edit on 20-11-2017 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 07:32 PM
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originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Yes, most of us here have seen it day in and out. But guess who is the president now, and guess who was around when all this "LEFT vrs RIGHT" BS started, Trump. There is no coincidence that he is literally directly connected to what has happened to politics.

I like to call out the idiots fighting over the extreme poles of the political spectrum. But this one subject seems to have Trump smeared all over it. What other president has used these tactics before? If there is, I can bet you can predict Trumps playbook right down to his useless speeches.


The reason it is more prevalent under POTUS 45 is because the Left, and specifically HRC and the Dems, just can’t seem to acknowledge that her coronation is not happening...at least not until 2020 if they try and buy it again.

In previous elections 1) social media was not as wide spread, 2) the runner up faded into the wood work (did you EVER see/hear McCain or Romney pulling the stuff HRC has been doing almost everyday since she lost the election?), and 3) a generation of posters not schooled in debate, civilty, or even civics, for that matter.
edit on 20-11-2017 by Lab4Us because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 07:38 PM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I recognized this as a possibility and even asked if there was.
But you are using the term deflection loosely here. The OP clearly made a post about whataboutism, which is a form of deflection. And again, I asked has any president before Trump used those specific tactics before?



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 07:39 PM
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a reply to: Lab4Us

You are reverting back to a politic rant here. Which in my first post in this thread was high lighting that even just mentioning Trump or Hilary stirs the political pot.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 08:00 PM
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originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I recognized this as a possibility and even asked if there was.
But you are using the term deflection loosely here. The OP clearly made a post about whataboutism, which is a form of deflection. And again, I asked has any president before Trump used those specific tactics before?


Most presidents resort to fallacy of all types in one way or another. The art of rhetoric is specifically designed for that class of orator. But as for whataboutism, the tactic was employed by the likes of Richard Dawkins and Noam Chomsky.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 09:22 PM
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originally posted by: soberbacchus
Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.


John Oliver did a fantastic job of summing up the fallacy:

"whataboutism," a fallacy with roots in old Soviet propaganda that shifts any given topic to another, potentially irrelevant one.

"It implies that all actions regardless of context share a moral equivalency," says Oliver.

Whataboutism: The practice of changing the subject to someone else's perceived wrongdoing.

"And since nobody is perfect, all criticism is hypocritical and everyone should do whatever they want ...

It doesn't solve a problem or win an argument.

The point is just to muddy the waters, which just makes the other side mad."


"A defense attorney could not stand up in court and say 'maybe my client did murder those people, but what about Jeffrey Dahmer? What about Al Capone? What about the guy from Silence of the Lambs? I rest my case.'"

"EVEN IF you believe that Democrats are guilty of a double standard, the solution is not to have no standard whatsoever,"

Whataboutism is explained by John Oliver at the 6:20 Minute mark:



Roy Moore? Whatabout Bill Clinton?

Russian Collusion? Whatabout Hillary Clinton?

Neo Nazi lunatic running down a crowd with their car? Whatabout left wing protestors getting violent?

Ad Infinium ..


en.wikipedia.org...

Also here:
Trump Embraces One Of Russia's Favorite Propaganda Tactics — Whataboutism
www.npr.org...



The idea, Dubrovsky posited, is that a populist leader wants to keep his masses of supporters on his side. Getting too specific on a policy or a position risks creating rifts within that base of support. Pointing to a common enemy, on the other hand, is a great way to unify a group.

Whataboutism flattens moral nuances into a black-and-white worldview.

But in this worldview, it's very difficult to be the good guy; idealism is the ultimate naïveté, and anyone who dares to criticize another can be "unmasked" as a hypocrite.

This creates a useful moral equivalency, as Nikitin added: if nobody is perfect, there's license to do all sorts of imperfect things.




I don't know though, is this logical fallacy really a derivative of soviet tactics? I suspect it vastlyyyyy predates the soviet and even marxist era, i.e. it's been around for centuries if not all of history..



posted on Nov, 21 2017 @ 03:50 AM
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a reply to: jimmyx




Moore proven guilty?.....this isn't a court of law, it's about his fitness to being elected to a political position...he has already been struck down twice as being unfit to serve as a federal judge by the U.S. supreme court.....and yet, you think he should be elected into the senate to vote on federal legislation.....


Well the people of Alabama will make that decision.



posted on Nov, 21 2017 @ 03:56 AM
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a reply to: soberbacchus




No, we operate on informed decision making in voting and other things, not a full-on jury trial for each and every conclusion or decision we make.


Informed decision making? lol. Sure the left operate that way. That is why the DNC picked Hilary huh? Not very informed.



posted on Nov, 22 2017 @ 10:41 AM
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originally posted by: Lab4Us

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Yes, most of us here have seen it day in and out. But guess who is the president now, and guess who was around when all this "LEFT vrs RIGHT" BS started, Trump. There is no coincidence that he is literally directly connected to what has happened to politics.

I like to call out the idiots fighting over the extreme poles of the political spectrum. But this one subject seems to have Trump smeared all over it. What other president has used these tactics before? If there is, I can bet you can predict Trumps playbook right down to his useless speeches.


The reason it is more prevalent under POTUS 45 is because the Left, and specifically HRC and the Dems,


Trump is theoretically not a child. He is responsible for his own words.



posted on Nov, 22 2017 @ 10:42 AM
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originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: strongfp

I've never denied he's a piece of work, but to act like he's the first POTUS ever to deflect


WHATABOUT other Presidents!

He is not the first, but objectively he is the first to employ the propagandist fallacy with virtually every issue.



posted on Nov, 22 2017 @ 10:46 AM
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originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
en.wikipedia.org...

Well "Whataboutism" has a wikipedia page.

Funny it only features main sections on Russia, and Trump.

Unless anyone can explain how this is any different than typical partisan deflection


Please cite 2 or more examples of President Obama using Whataboutism.

Trump employs the tactic with virtually every critique relevant to his own or his party's misdeeds.



posted on Nov, 22 2017 @ 10:55 AM
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a reply to: soberbacchus

The biggest cause of this, to me, is the fact that he is a salesman and not a philosopher. He doesn't employ good logical practices because he isn't familiar with them. They were never reinforced for him intellectually. For him, as a salesman and land developer, finding ways to misrepresent the truth was what was rewarded.

And that is how he now interacts. A monster that his past history helped create.



posted on Nov, 22 2017 @ 11:44 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: soberbacchus

The biggest cause of this, to me, is the fact that he is a salesman and not a philosopher. He doesn't employ good logical practices because he isn't familiar with them. They were never reinforced for him intellectually. For him, as a salesman and land developer, finding ways to misrepresent the truth was what was rewarded.

And that is how he now interacts. A monster that his past history helped create.


I don't disagree.
I do believe that regardless of (R) or (D) that "we the people" need to be wary of this kind of political rhetoric, lest we end up used and abused by a significant magnitude greater than we are now.



"It implies that all actions regardless of context share a moral equivalency,"

"And since nobody is perfect, all criticism is hypocritical and everyone should do whatever they want ...

It doesn't solve a problem or win an argument.

"EVEN IF you believe that Democrats are guilty of a double standard, the solution is not to have no standard whatsoever,"


THIS IS REAL: Every legal or moral standard, norm, law that is bent, lowered, eroded, destroyed by this administration creates space for the next administration to behave equally bad or worse. The precedents that the GOP are setting now will effect the future when they might not be in power. That is very bad for everyone (R), (D) and in between.

Yes, President Trump and his supporters in and outside of DC use Whataboutism to excuse EVERY bad act by them and theirs. It is not just immoral and dishonest, but it is short term thinking. Do they actually want to live in a country where a (D) potus in the future behaved similarly or worse and excused their behavior with "Whataboutism" regarding Trump?

Everybody should call it out now, or everybody will suffer the consequences in the future.




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