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Where Civil Rights Went Wrong....

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posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 01:47 AM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

1) I don’t know man that would have been a totally different game.. those that followed Douglass might not have gotten anywhere if they were in his circumstances..

2) I didn’t say John Brown was Hannible Barca.. I said he wanted it more.. I heard one description that said he was an “A to G” thinker..
he would come up with a big idea, but wasn’t detail oriented enough to handle the logistics required to actually see it through.

I already know there has never been some big trend of black violent activism.. well not passed a Little rioting now and then.. Nothing like the lynchings , nor some concerted effort to attack whites on a large scale..

Even during slavery the few revolts were insanely mild relatively speaking..

3) I got it from the wiki page on quotes about John Brown.. I think I have heard it before though.. I’m facinated by Brown so have watched/heard quite a few sources.

The context I am assuming that X ment it In was to hype the fact this was a “black only “ organization, which I think is inherently faulty logic. Since looking at Brown, obviously you never know where your most committed soldier might come from.

I put the disclaimer at the end about “ keeping him on a leash” for exactly that reason lol..

I’m using the most extreme example for a reason.. to show that Brown wasn’t just spouting lip service..

There can be no doubt Brown was a true believer..




posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 01:54 AM
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a reply to: seagull

Reconstruction started well... in the wake of the war AMAZING steps were made..

But ABE was assassinated and his “pro slavery democat VP” had his disastrous turn . Followed by just an incredible wave of domestic terrorism... a wave they were smart enough not to focus on the white US Troops and only the freed slaves..

And mainstream America decided they would rather sacrifice the freed slaves, for reconciliation through the lost cause..

Now, “ no one really lost and we can all be friends again.. as long as you turn a blind eye to what we do to our blacks of course...”



edit on 20-11-2017 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 01:57 AM
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originally posted by: ShatteredKingdom
a reply to: Spider879

Leave people alone and they will get along fine. Push a market on them, like the one they've been pushing for decades and everyone will become racist. People have become so stupid.

There is a saying that goes.. Power Concedes Nothing Without A Demand, meaning we would still have have segregation , which was not equal by any means, and resulted in not only gross humiliation but economic depravity, saying that leaving ppl alone is all good, if one community didn't have the power to subjugate the other.. Think Black wall st. or Greenwood Tulsa Oklahoma.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:06 AM
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originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: ShatteredKingdom
a reply to: Spider879

Leave people alone and they will get along fine. Push a market on them, like the one they've been pushing for decades and everyone will become racist. People have become so stupid.

There is a saying that goes.. Power Concedes Nothing Without A Demand, meaning we would still have have segregation , which was not equal by any means, and resulted in not only gross humiliation but economic depravity, saying that leaving ppl alone is all good, if one community didn't have the power to subjugate the other.. Think Black wall st. or Greenwood Tulsa Oklahoma.


I like you, I do. I have seen your posts. But you're a Man. Men have an advantage over Women. Men claim to know how to make it all OK. But they don't. They Lord their gender over Women and have for Centuries. Now tides are changing and the old attitudes are coming back to play. I see it every day. Men have no feelings, not in my experience. They pretend to, and they're really good at it. Never mind. I can't see people being equal in my future. It will never happen and I will never see it.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:08 AM
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originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: JoshuaCox


NAACP = National Association Advancing Colored People. Our ORANGE President could lead the organization.

He cares more about people of color than many people of color care about people of color.

The Donald is president or supposed to be the president of all of us, but is still in campaign mode, having trouble running his own staff.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:13 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox



1) I don’t know man that would have been a totally different game.. those that followed Douglass might not have gotten anywhere if they were in his circumstances..

If results are the end goal, then he failed. I don't even think he would consider his works as having been complete successes; more like the first 2 chapters are finished but the rest of the book was left for the next generations.

Though I think I'm sounding harsher than I mean it. I can completely acknowledge and appreciate the accomplishments of each generation. And I understand that each generation builds upon the previous generations' successes. But I'm a results oriented person. If my goal is to end world homelessness but I die without ending homelessness in even my own city, then I failed. However, I'd hope that my works helped the next leaders in their quest to end homelessness. And if a woman 70 years after I died was the one to finally get "no more homelessness" legislation passed, I could perfectly understand why people in the future would remember her over me.



2) On John Brown...

Don't get me wrong, I understand why he was loved and seen as a hero by many. Not only was American slavery barbaric, but it included "Papers Please" laws in the North after the Fugitive Slave Act. So anyone who fought back was seen as a hero, including rebelling slaves like Nat Turner.

However, once slavery and then the Black Codes were ended, the new major goals became equality of citizenship. Under Jim Crow laws, we couldn't live in the same neighborhoods, go to the same schools, work together, testify in court against "white" Americans, could legally be denied govt contracts and services at businesses based on race, etc. Violent revolutions would've been counterproductive for this goal. That's the major point I'm trying to bring up about John Brown in a different time period.



The context I am assuming that X ment it In was to hype the fact this was a “black only “ organization, which I think is inherently faulty logic. Since looking at Brown, obviously you never know where your most committed soldier might come from.

Grumble grumble... I really don't want to touch the "Black Power" movement... grumble...

I'll just say this. There were definitely "black" people who wanted inclusion and equality. But there were others who wanted true segregation. The problem in their eyes was that the Jim Crow "Separate but equal" laws were neither separate nor equal. They weren't truly "separate" because white people still controlled our neighborhoods, wrote all of the laws, policed our neighborhoods, etc etc etc. And they weren't truly "equal" because of the things I mentioned before. Hell, black people couldn't even have the same gun ownership rights as white people, with both Reagan and the NRA pushing gun control in California because of the Black Panther Party's armed protests.

So in this context, the black power movement generally believed "Black power for black people and white power for white people" instead of "White power for black people and white power for white people". The idea that they would allow high profile white people to lead their organizations would defeat the purpose. They also preached that black people would never be treated as equals by white people until we were self sufficient like Jewish communities and other demographics. And once again, allowing high profile white people to lead their "Black Power" organizations would defeat the purpose.

Also, one of the chief requests with civil rights and white Americans was that if they really wanted to help, then they should start with their own family members, friends, communities, etc. Because those family members and community members were far less likely to listen to black people and black organizations. Some even rejected "white help" because they didn't want the white person to be targeted (and some because of govt spies). It's complicated, man lol.

ETA: LOL I've noticed something. I'm way too quick to give long answers. I don't even mean to, it just pours out. I'd be the worse secret agent ever. Ask me about cocoa and I'd blab about secret recipes, my favorite brands, how to make great brownies, and everything else.
edit on 20-11-2017 by enlightenedservant because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-11-2017 by enlightenedservant because: facepalm. changed could to couldn't in #2



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:20 AM
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originally posted by: ShatteredKingdom

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: ShatteredKingdom
a reply to: Spider879

Leave people alone and they will get along fine. Push a market on them, like the one they've been pushing for decades and everyone will become racist. People have become so stupid.

There is a saying that goes.. Power Concedes Nothing Without A Demand, meaning we would still have have segregation , which was not equal by any means, and resulted in not only gross humiliation but economic depravity, saying that leaving ppl alone is all good, if one community didn't have the power to subjugate the other.. Think Black wall st. or Greenwood Tulsa Oklahoma.


I like you, I do. I have seen your posts. But you're a Man. Men have an advantage over Women. Men claim to know how to make it all OK. But they don't. They Lord their gender over Women and have for Centuries. Now tides are changing and the old attitudes are coming back to play. I see it every day. Men have no feelings, not in my experience. They pretend to, and they're really good at it. Never mind. I can't see people being equal in my future. It will never happen and I will never see it.

It's OK if you nor I will ever see it, but for the sake of others who will replace us we better try to make not just America but the entire planet a More Perfect Union... work in progress,

BTW do you know which nation have the most females in Parliament and wage equality?? ..Freakin Rwanda, yes you are reading this right Gender parity is a thing there by law, and they are about two yrs from being a meddle income nation, from just 20 yrs ago when they were busy mass genociding being one of the poorest nations on the planet, every one, things can change very rapidly if there is the will and vision to do so.
edit on 20-11-2017 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:26 AM
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originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: ShatteredKingdom

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: ShatteredKingdom
a reply to: Spider879

Leave people alone and they will get along fine. Push a market on them, like the one they've been pushing for decades and everyone will become racist. People have become so stupid.

There is a saying that goes.. Power Concedes Nothing Without A Demand, meaning we would still have have segregation , which was not equal by any means, and resulted in not only gross humiliation but economic depravity, saying that leaving ppl alone is all good, if one community didn't have the power to subjugate the other.. Think Black wall st. or Greenwood Tulsa Oklahoma.


I like you, I do. I have seen your posts. But you're a Man. Men have an advantage over Women. Men claim to know how to make it all OK. But they don't. They Lord their gender over Women and have for Centuries. Now tides are changing and the old attitudes are coming back to play. I see it every day. Men have no feelings, not in my experience. They pretend to, and they're really good at it. Never mind. I can't see people being equal in my future. It will never happen and I will never see it.

It's OK if you nor I will ever see it, but for the sake of others who will replace us we better try to make not just America but the entire planet a More Perfect Union... work in progress,

BTW do you know which nation have the most females in Parliament and wage equality?? ..Freakin Rwanda, yes you are reading this right Gender parity is a thing there by law, and they are about two yes from being a meddle income nation, from just 20 yes ago when they were busy mass genociding being one of the poorest nations on the planet, every one, things can change very rapidly if there is the will and vision to do so.


Thank you. I think they're, the people in charge, are trying to mess us up and cause division. I think it's great about Rwanda, but I don't trust them, you know, the people who tell us what to do and how to live. For me its not about letting women be in charge vs men. For me, it's the fact that they are trying to ruin our way of life, and control it. I know deviance when i see it. And they are very good at it. I just don't know where the world is headed right now. It's all chaos to me.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:37 AM
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a reply to: ShatteredKingdom

We will get there, can't give up the fight..



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:50 AM
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a reply to: Spider879

I know, but it's hard when you finally realise everything you knew was a lie. How do you carry on knowing that?



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 05:46 AM
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originally posted by: ShatteredKingdom
a reply to: Spider879

I know, but it's hard when you finally realise everything you knew was a lie. How do you carry on knowing that?

Press restart and go fwd, history is replete with many false starts and reversals.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 08:54 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

If you aren't black, why do you care? There's no solving this problem. As a "Nation", for the US, the race problem is like a birth mark, its never going away.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 09:17 AM
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a reply to: TonyS

And there is a perfect example of the problem... since I am white, then it doesn’t concern me..

It concerns me because I’m an American and a human....



I’m inherently on “X” team because I was born that way..

“Your not black , so what do you care if they are raped and pillaged??? It’s not happening to you...”



Oh the race problem will absolutely go away... about a generation before we are all tan, and too interbreed to still discriminate along those lines..

Exactly the same way that after the Europeans interbred so much that you could no longer find a pure bred Italian or whatever..

So English, French, Irish , exc all became “white”.




posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 09:24 AM
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a reply to: ShatteredKingdom

Define “ tell us what to do and how to live???”

Is telling us not to murder ok??

What about not to speed??

Not to rape??

Not to litter??

Everyone gets told what to do to a point, and when is that exceptanle, and when is it tyranny??

Some people think the lynchings in post civil war America were tyranny..

Some people think the fact people get welfare from tax dollars is tyranny??


Your being too broad..

Morality laws have consistently been a disaster and “that’s the way it has always been, so there must be a reason for it being that way..” Has been the excuse for almost every atrocity in history..

Or at least the reason all the otherwise good people have turned a blind eye to atrocities..



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 11:35 AM
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Where civil rights went wrong was it was successful (that in itself is just fine with me) and some of the leaders realized they would be out of a job, so they had to keep inventing issues. That has continued for decades, to the point where now we're down to nonsense like "the flag is racist" and young people want segregation. This has had the effect of actually undoing a lot of the progress they made.


edit on 20 11 17 by face23785 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 11:56 AM
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a reply to: face23785

There was always a branch of civil rights activists that wanted total separation. But just like today, they were always in the minority. Just as there have always been pro-2nd Amendment black organizations, like the Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, and Deacons for Self Defense. It's not our fault that the media only focuses on the divisive issues and divisive people, while completely ignoring the interfaith groups and pro-integration groups.

It's funny to me how people can claim the media distorts the truth when it comes their side, but those same people seem to think the media is completely honest when it comes to their opponents. lol They will never tell the full story about either "side" nor about every branch in each "side" because conflict sells better than reconciliation.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 12:01 PM
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originally posted by: face23785
Where civil rights went wrong was it was successful (that in itself is just fine with me) and some of the leaders realized they would be out of a job, so they had to keep inventing issues. That has continued for decades, to the point where now we're down to nonsense like "the flag is racist" and young people want segregation. This has had the effect of actually undoing a lot of the progress they made.



Yup. I've long stated that the civil rights movement (MLK era) was actually too successful. They got society to change so fast that I don't think the leadership or the black community in general was prepared for the rapid change and still stuck in an old mindset.

I think most white people have moved on, but the black community has not.

The other big mistake I think the civil rights movement made was focusing too much on political power instead of economic power. The black community has a ton of political power, but didn't really develop economic power. More specifically, were so caught up on integration at the detriment of building our own communities economically.

Economic power is what really matters. So the black community has a lot of political representation, but that only goes so far. Economic power is what really makes America tick.

In some ways, integration was the worst thing that could have happened to the black community because it took away the "do for self" mentality that we had when we had not choice.

we should have listened more to Booker T Washington instead of WEB Dubois imho.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 12:31 PM
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a reply to: Edumakated

I agree and disagree at the sametime ,look back during that era, there were eight economically successful self built built AA seed communities that were destroyed by folks who wished them harm, I mentioned Greenwood earlier, this was about the sametime new immigrants were setting down roots and building their seed communities, that would eventually passed on to their descendants and increased in value ie wealth creation, they were destroyed because they lacked the political power to stave off such aggressions, zoning and urban planning with out input from AA comminities strangled the rebuilding of future seed communities, ultimately creating the Ghetto, but yes the drive for political power did impact negatively on AA businesses through brain drain and focus.
edit on 20-11-2017 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 12:59 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

A) I think you are missing how bad if was before Douglass.. like maybe your bottom floor doesn’t give room for the due Douglass/Tubman deserves.. PLUS dude could speak..

I mean come on the “infinity superior to mine “ speech is F’n beautifully written..

Imho ending slavery would be you biggest hill to climb, because it’s just too damn profitable..

After emancipation your only fighting the intangible moral and social order arguments, before emancipation your fighting the financial argument as well..

When you look at the amount of wealth lost by freeing the slaves, it is no suprise that people were willing to fight a war to keep it.

Plus , though of course MLK and such had to fear for their lives..

Frederick Douglass could have been shot dead in the town square in Charleston and there wouldn’t even have been charges or trial..

If MLK is killed by a known assailant, he is going to jail.. .


That just ups the ante a million fold imho..

CONCLUSION....

I think that might be the trick... you have to assimilate without your own set or tribalism setting in...

OBVIOUSLY, the all black organizations , or precieved all black organizations have been fodder for the white supremacists.. that is the base of their arguments in most cases..

So has the all black perception or reality been worth the easy fodder for those opposing it??



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:14 PM
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originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: face23785
Where civil rights went wrong was it was successful (that in itself is just fine with me) and some of the leaders realized they would be out of a job, so they had to keep inventing issues. That has continued for decades, to the point where now we're down to nonsense like "the flag is racist" and young people want segregation. This has had the effect of actually undoing a lot of the progress they made.



Yup. I've long stated that the civil rights movement (MLK era) was actually too successful. They got society to change so fast that I don't think the leadership or the black community in general was prepared for the rapid change and still stuck in an old mindset.

I think most white people have moved on, but the black community has not.

The other big mistake I think the civil rights movement made was focusing too much on political power instead of economic power. The black community has a ton of political power, but didn't really develop economic power. More specifically, were so caught up on integration at the detriment of building our own communities economically.

Economic power is what really matters. So the black community has a lot of political representation, but that only goes so far. Economic power is what really makes America tick.

In some ways, integration was the worst thing that could have happened to the black community because it took away the "do for self" mentality that we had when we had not choice.

we should have listened more to Booker T Washington instead of WEB Dubois imho.


What you're saying has some merit, but I take issue with the part about blacks having political power and representation. The people they consistently vote for pay a lot of lip service, but they don't actually do anything to help the black community achieve the economic success you rightfully insist they need. They just vote for them because the other guy is "racist", or so they're told. Decades of following this pattern religiously hasn't gotten them any tangible results. Their "power" is limited to they're a reliable block of votes and they're useful when certain people need to pretend something is racist to advance an agenda. They don't get help with any real issues.
edit on 20 11 17 by face23785 because: (no reason given)



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