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Trump Tax Plan will be Devestating to Seniors and Poor People

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posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 01:53 PM
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It's laughable actually, how so many poorer people vote Republican, somehow thinking that party takes care of their needs. The GOP never has, rather it makes no excuse that it supports the wealthy. Why would anyone think this tax reform bill is yet another money grab by the one percent? But, more importantly, why would anyone think the one percent should have even more wealth? Over the past 40 years, most wealth has been transferred from the middle class to the upper class, to the degree that many middle class families now live paycheck to paycheck. This really makes no sense considering that the super rich have far more wealth than they could ever spend. WTF is wrong with these people?




posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:14 PM
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a reply to: tabularosa


The GOP never has, rather it makes no excuse that it supports the wealthy.

Is it the 'wealthy' they support, or is it those who are willing to put forth an effort?

BTW, who is this 'wealthy' you speak of?


Why would anyone think this tax reform bill is yet another money grab by the one percent?

Maybe they read it?

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:28 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
Under this plan I lose access to health care


How is that? This tax plan would do away with the health tax of 350 billion. That means Americans would not be forced to pay for something they decided to not have. Also, only if there is no change to Obamacare then over 10 years we would see 12 million without health insurance



My federal taxes (ignoring state/city) jump from 17% of my income to 45% of my income


How can that be? Do you make over 1 million, which would be 39.8%?



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:36 PM
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a reply to: tabularosa

If the middle class was as unhappy as you depict, they would be marching on Washington, protesting against this tax cut bill.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:51 PM
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originally posted by: Xtrozero
How can that be? Do you make over 1 million, which would be 39.8%?


There are very significant tax increases for students. Health care will also cost me more money (if I can get it at all) thanks to preexisting conditions.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 02:54 PM
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originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan

Can I get you on record saying obama was the most fiscally irresponsible president in the history of the united states?


No, because he wasn't. Obama wasn't great, he's been at best average for the past 100 years but the worst was George W Bush.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 03:13 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

There are very significant tax increases for students. Health care will also cost me more money (if I can get it at all) thanks to preexisting conditions.


Like what increases? How do you pay more than 12% if you are a low income student? Also, if you do not make much how does that equate to big dollars in taxes for you? Can you give me a couple of examples where your tax will go up and at what cost?

Need to treat health care as a different event... Obamacare is dying on the vine as we speak so they will need to do something sooner or later no matter what the tax changes are.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 03:43 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan


There are very significant tax increases for students.

I ran the figures you gave me, here. You are misreading the tax plan.

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 04:42 PM
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originally posted by: Xtrozero
Like what increases? How do you pay more than 12% if you are a low income student? Also, if you do not make much how does that equate to big dollars in taxes for you? Can you give me a couple of examples where your tax will go up and at what cost?


The biggest one is for a group I'm not in, but one day hope to be in which is grad students. Very often, their contracts will involve compensation along the lines of $15k in cash and $20k in tuition waivers. Currently, only the $15k is considered taxable income. Under the House tax plan, the tuition waiver you get is also considered taxable income. So while right now you'll pay about $1000 out of the $15k, under the new plan you'll be paying taxes on $35,000 out of the $15k which is closer to $4000.

It's a big hit to grad students that are in research fields. Worth noting, this only applies to people that are getting research grants. If you're working for a company that offers to cover tuition costs as a perk you're exempt. So it's largely the research sector that gets hit.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 04:54 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
So while right now you'll pay about $1000 out of the $15k, under the new plan you'll be paying taxes on $35,000 out of the $15k which is closer to $4000.


I guess we will see, but I don't see how a reduction in cost equates to income. That would be like a car dealer selling me a car 10,000 below sticker and then treating that 10,000 as income.




It's a big hit to grad students that are in research fields. Worth noting, this only applies to people that are getting research grants. If you're working for a company that offers to cover tuition costs as a perk you're exempt. So it's largely the research sector that gets hit.


Short term hit no matter what...think about the 50 years making a good amount of money and paying taxes on that...



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 04:59 PM
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CNN not only lies, but they withhold information to create their own truths. Nothing new under the sun there. They only tell you the parts that support their agenda. This is a standard for CNN at this point, which is why their new name is Fake News.



(Source: Politifact.com)


Trump’s plan would eliminate personal exemptions but double the standard deduction to $12,000 for single filers and $24,000 for married filers. That means any filer who earns less than those amounts would pay [no] federal income tax


There will also be a Child Tax Credit increase for the lower class in Trump's tax reform. Yes the wealth benefit, but so do the lower class.


Ruling from Politifact.com (fact checking site):




Our ruling Schumer said Trump’s tax plan is "completely focused on the wealthy and the powerful - not the middle class." Granted, there are lots of details missing from Trump's tax plan. But the plan presented so far does deal with taxpayers who are not wealthy. So in a strict reading of his claim, Schumer is saying the Trump plan has no changes, positive or negative, for low- or middle-income taxpayers. That isn't the case. It's possible that by "completely focused" Schumer meant the Trump plan benefits only the wealthy and the powerful. But that also isn't completely true. While many of the plan’s proposals would benefit the wealthy, doubling the standard deduction would mean more of the country’s lowest earners would pay no federal income tax and taxpayers earning less than about $150,000 would see a tax cut.

We rate Schumer's statement False.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 05:00 PM
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CNN not only lies, but they withhold information to create their own truths. Nothing new under the sun there. They only tell you the parts that support the Liberal (Globalist) agenda. This is a standard for CNN at this point, which is why their new name is Fake News.



(Source: Politifact.com)


Trump’s plan would eliminate personal exemptions but double the standard deduction to $12,000 for single filers and $24,000 for married filers. That means any filer who earns less than those amounts would pay [no] federal income tax


There will also be a Child Tax Credit increase for the lower class in Trump's tax reform. Yes the wealth benefit, but so do the lower class.


Ruling from Politifact.com (fact checking site):


Politifact Ruling:


Schumer said Trump’s tax plan is "completely focused on the wealthy and the powerful - not the middle class." Granted, there are lots of details missing from Trump's tax plan. But the plan presented so far does deal with taxpayers who are not wealthy. So in a strict reading of his claim, Schumer is saying the Trump plan has no changes, positive or negative, for low- or middle-income taxpayers. That isn't the case. It's possible that by "completely focused" Schumer meant the Trump plan benefits only the wealthy and the powerful. But that also isn't completely true. While many of the plan’s proposals would benefit the wealthy, doubling the standard deduction would mean more of the country’s lowest earners would pay no federal income tax and taxpayers earning less than about $150,000 would see a tax cut.

We rate Schumer's statement False.

edit on 20-11-2017 by IlluminatiTechnician because: because



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 05:02 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
That's a far cry from the 45% reiterated as 28% you originally thought. It's a little more than you pay now (but much less with the sunset clause on educational expenses), and someone in a worse position than you (around here, $55K/yr means you are rich! Most students live on $30K or less if they're lucky) will get their taxes lowered considerably.


I don't actually mind the change to deductions. I don't think the tax code should include any deductions aside from the standard deduction. My opinion on deductions is that they're manipulative in order to promote certain behaviors or products and that every deduction takes away just a little bit of freedom. That said, I understand that they also create a lot more tolerance for taxes because people like easy to use deductions that make them feel like they're putting one over on the man.

In my ideal world I would like a tax code that has no business taxes, no sales tax, no capital gains. Just pure income tax with no deductions.

It's this mentality that leads me to oppose this tax plan. Like I said, I don't mind tax increases as long as that money is raising the average quality of life in the county. However, I have a very big problem with using the tax code to shape a persons behavior and this new tax code is being used to encourage people to work low end jobs rather than to actually reach their potential and become qualified for higher end work.

In my case, when I decide to go to grad school (my preferred Masters degree is still too new of a field for good programs to have been developed), assuming I stay with my current employer this won't be an issue. Not everyone is lucky enough to be working for a company that's as good to it's employees as mine is though and when the time comes, maybe I won't be either. Flat out, it doesn't help us to encourage the next potential Einstein to drop out of school and go dig ditches and that's exactly what this tax bill is doing.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 05:03 PM
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originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician
There will also be a Child Tax Credit increase for the lower class in Trump's tax reform. Yes the wealth benefit, but so do the lower class.


So riddle me this. If the budget goes up, and spending is increasing, yet this bill is lowering taxes on the wealthy, and is claimed to be deficit neutral... then who is paying more money to make up the shortfall?



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 05:25 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician
There will also be a Child Tax Credit increase for the lower class in Trump's tax reform. Yes the wealth benefit, but so do the lower class.


So riddle me this. If the budget goes up, and spending is increasing, yet this bill is lowering taxes on the wealthy, and is claimed to be deficit neutral... then who is paying more money to make up the shortfall?



As you read, the details are not all finished yet, but I assume, that when the rich start spending (because of the money they save in this tax leverage) they will have more money to build their businesses, and to invest more in technologies and product. They will also be able to hire more workers. People will be buying more, and more jobs will be created to make sure that product gets out. More jobs means less poor and homeless.
Even if the people have to pay a little more in taxes, they are also relieved of having to pay Federal tax, and will get more back from child tax credits. The economy tends to iron out the kinks along the way and find the best possible balance available...as always. Remember the economy's interest and prices are always variable...always changing.

You have to understand, whether you like it or not...the rich are the ones holding all of the cards. It all rolls downhill from them. If you DON'T cut taxes for the rich, and decide that...because they make more money it makes more sense to tax THEM more, you will find out real quick that they will simply pluck their businesses up from the roots and move to another country that has less taxation. This will leave American's stranded and destitute, and they will be expected to pay even higher taxes to make up for what was lost in revenue from the rich that left.

You punish the rich who own the businesses, and that literally make commerce work in Capitalism....you punish all American's...because the rich will have a choice to leave. You will not.


edit on 20-11-2017 by IlluminatiTechnician because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 06:13 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan


I don't actually mind the change to deductions. I don't think the tax code should include any deductions aside from the standard deduction.

I mostly agree with that, plus the special deductions are the reason the wealthy pay so little in taxes. Education costs are one of the few areas where I can go along with a deduction,because it is so important to stimulating the economy.

But this statement confuses me: on one hand you are complaining that your deductions are going away, yet on the other hand you don't want any deductions. Can we pick a position?


Like I said, I don't mind tax increases as long as that money is raising the average quality of life in the county. However, I have a very big problem with using the tax code to shape a persons behavior and this new tax code is being used to encourage people to work low end jobs rather than to actually reach their potential and become qualified for higher end work.

I'm not sure what to say... maybe big letter?

Without this bill, there are no deductions for education whatsoever!

Not trying to be overbearing here, but that has been pointed out to you, with US government links, multiple times. Yet you simply ignore it. Again,

Without this bill, there are no deductions for education whatsoever!

Now, exactly how is allowing deductions for educational expenses considered encouraging people to work low-end jobs instead of qualifying for high-end jobs? It seems to me it does the opposite of what you claim.


Not everyone is lucky enough to be working for a company that's as good to it's employees as mine is

That's true, and the whole idea of the tax bill is to increase economic growth so others might have those advantages you have. In my case, Obamacare actually prevents me from getting health insurance. I don't make enough to qualify for Obamacare subsidies, but my state did not expand Medicaid so it doesn't cover me either. The reason I don't make enough is that the mandatory insurance rates for companies are so high and are based on the average age of employees... it costs them too much to hire me over a 22 y/o graduate.

That is the legacy of the tax plan you support. And it's going to get worse.

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 06:57 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
But this statement confuses me: on one hand you are complaining that your deductions are going away, yet on the other hand you don't want any deductions. Can we pick a position?


It's not deductions going away that make it harder for students. It's counting funds paid on your behalf as if they're income. Where the deduction issue really comes in is for teachers in grade school who often times have to buy their own classroom supplies for the students. Those too are going away, or more accurately are being reduced. Philosophically I'm fine with that, but we all know that without some legislation forcing them to do so, the schools won't be picking up the tab for what should essentially count as office supplies when they really should.


Now, exactly how is allowing deductions for educational expenses considered encouraging people to work low-end jobs instead of qualifying for high-end jobs? It seems to me it does the opposite of what you claim.


Taxing tuition waivers, scholarships, and grants effectively makes college more expensive. There's some other taxes going in there too, to increase the amount in taxes that colleges pay (while lowering business taxes).

Taken as a whole, it's quite clear that the whole thing is a dog and pony show to try and push people out of schooling.

There is a war on education going on right now. People are pulling their kids out of school to home school/indoctrinate them. For profit colleges are pushing back hard despite the fact that they result in the vast majority of student loan fraud. Public schools are facing issues, and charter/religious schools are teaching to lower standards.

There is a lot going on with the school system right now, and virtually none of it is good. This bill is an attempt to push things just a little bit more in the realm of higher education, so they can hope for an all out collapse. Remember, should it pass... it's being signed into law by a guy who thinks Trump University is legitimate higher education.


That's true, and the whole idea of the tax bill is to increase economic growth so others might have those advantages you have. In my case, Obamacare actually prevents me from getting health insurance. I don't make enough to qualify for Obamacare subsidies, but my state did not expand Medicaid so it doesn't cover me either. The reason I don't make enough is that the mandatory insurance rates for companies are so high and are based on the average age of employees... it costs them too much to hire me over a 22 y/o graduate.


It's not the federal governments fault your state decided to screw you over and not expand Medicaid. That's solely on your governor and state legislature. States rights and all.

Tax changes will not spur employment. If an employee brings the company profit, they'll expand. Lowering the cost of an employee doesn't increase the employees marketability because we're in a global economy. You're not competing against a 22 year old. You're competing against someone in Mexico, India, or China who can comfortably afford to work for $2 an hour. Bringing your total cost from $75 an hour to $74 an hour doesn't change that.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 07:07 PM
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originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician
As you read, the details are not all finished yet, but I assume, that when the rich start spending (because of the money they save in this tax leverage) they will have more money to build their businesses, and to invest more in technologies and product.


What good does having the ability to hire more workers do, when you have no one to buy the products?

It's not the wealthy who create jobs, they merely centralize the capital. The demand for labor comes from a population that wants a service and can afford to buy it.

Trickle down has been a theory for over 300 years, and it has never been shown to work. It used to be known as Horse and Sparrow economics. If you fed the horse enough oats, some would pass through and the sparrows could pick it out of the wealthy peoples #.

It has never worked. Capitalism only functions when a large percentage of the population has meaningful purchasing power. Right now, over 50% of the purchasing power belongs to 1% of the people. 40% of the purchasing power belongs to 0.1% of the people.

If you want to stimulate the economy, you give out tax rebates. The great part about tax rebates is they don't even cost anything, since the money gets retaxed at each purchase until it has been fully recollected.

If you want to make your donors richer, you give them millions/billions of dollars worth of tax cuts.


You have to understand, whether you like it or not...the rich are the ones holding all of the cards. It all rolls downhill from them. If you DON'T cut taxes for the rich, and decide that...because they make more money it makes more sense to tax THEM more, you will find out real quick that they will simply pluck their businesses up from the roots and move to another country that has less taxation. This will leave American's stranded and destitute, and they will be expected to pay even higher taxes to make up for what was lost in revenue from the rich that left.


There are already countries that offer 0% tax rates. Some offer negative tax rates. This is not an area in which we can compete. Due to committed spending, we simply must tax at certain rates that we cannot go below. The US can never offer a competitive tax rate unless we were to make significant spending cuts, and seriously devalue the dollar to take advantage of different economic zones. It's foolish to even try to compete, it only harms our citizens.



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 07:22 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan




What good does having the ability to hire more workers do, when you have no one to buy the products?


Firstly, the workers ARE the buyers. When we have more people working...those same people will now have the money to buy the very products that they created (interchangeably, of course). This is why you would hire more people. The homeless sure aren't going to be buying anything.


America has been a Capitalist Country for 117 years, and a Sovereign Country much longer than that. I would say that (up until recently with all of the divisions) Capitalism has worked just fine. For generations America has been on top. The only reason we're falling right now is because of the division tactics of the left, and Soros funding idiot meatbags to start crap with people, while politician's rob us blind and Islam tries to destroy us from the inside, and replace us with Sharia Law. These are the only reasons America is distressed right now. Globalists are trying to destroy her in every way possible. If it were not for all of these things, Capitalism would still be on top.
edit on 20-11-2017 by IlluminatiTechnician because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2017 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan


It's not deductions going away that make it harder for students. It's counting funds paid on your behalf as if they're income.

Such offsets, if counted as income, were already counted as income. In the case of scholarships, the deduction equaled the value of the scholarship, so it was simply not included in taxable income. This bill does change that; instead of being 100% deductible, it is partly deductible to offset the lowered tax rates.

But if, as you say, scholarships were not counted as income, I don't see any provision to change that. Now it's a big bill, so can you point it out to me? C lick this link to get the full official text of the House bill.


Where the deduction issue really comes in is for teachers in grade school who often times have to buy their own classroom supplies for the students.

That is not a qualified educational expense; that is a business expense if not reimbursed. The teachers I have talked to tell me that they often have to buy supplies for their classroom because the school budget is not finalized yet and are often reimbursed later on. In any case, they are not buying supplies for themselves or a dependent, but as a necessary expense in their occupation.

Please show me where that is going away. C lick this link to get the full official text of the House bill.


Taxing tuition waivers, scholarships, and grants effectively makes college more expensive. There's some other taxes going in there too, to increase the amount in taxes that colleges pay (while lowering business taxes).

Again, I have seen none of that. Please point out where it is in the bill. C lick this link to get the full official text of the House bill.


There is a war on education going on right now. People are pulling their kids out of school to home school/indoctrinate them. For profit colleges are pushing back hard despite the fact that they result in the vast majority of student loan fraud. Public schools are facing issues, and charter/religious schools are teaching to lower standards

Yes, there's a war on education going on right now, but not the war you describe. Colleges have nothing to do with home-schooling; home schooling replaces public school, mostly due to the fact that kids finishing public schools are woefully unprepared for college. Private schools typically produce better-equipped students for college-level studies, as do many home schools. The problem colleges are having is trying to help students make the transition from poor-quality public schools to an actual academic environment.

Graduate majors are also waning, but that is due to the fact that many industries have lost faith in college degrees and are not as anxious to hire based on that alone, as well as the fact that graduate costs are steadily rising. I am well aware of this as a graduate student myself (MSA Electrical Engineering, Control Theory / Communications), forced to take a semester sabbatical due to financial issues.

I worked for a few years as a mathematics tutor at my two-year college, and am intimately familiar with the issues students graduating from public school have.


it's being signed into law by a guy who thinks Trump University is legitimate higher education.

Trump University was a specialized school dedicated to teaching people how to operate in real estate. It was not a typical University. I also attended a truck driving school years ago... it wasn't a real school either, but it did teach a specialized field.

Scary is the fact that so many people don't realize this. I shouldn't even have to state it, it is so blatantly obvious.


It's not the federal governments fault your state decided to screw you over and not expand Medicaid. That's solely on your governor and state legislature. States rights and all.

Cop-out.

If the federal government wanted to take over responsibility for health care, they should have made provisions for states that did not choose to participate actively. They abdicated that responsibility. It's on them. Poor planning on their part does not necessarily constitute a mandate on Alabama's part.


Tax changes will not spur employment.

Well, we know your degree isn't in Business Management.

Taxes are absolutely a major factor in deciding where to locate a new plant; cities have been negotiating tax deals for companies to get them to locate there for ages. he Dow, a leading indicator of economic outlook,has been in a record 23,000 range for some time since Trump began talking lower taxes. I think those investors know more than you do.

To sum it up,you are simply incorrect on so many issues it is laughable. I originally thought your position was due to simple ignorance of the provisions in the n ew tax bill,but I am beginning to see it is more willful ignorance.

If you want to prove me wrong, it's very easy. I have linked the n ew tax bill several times in this post. That's not an editorial... it is the actual text of the bill passed by the House of Representatives. That is what will determine the tax policies, not you, not me, not the IRS, not CNN, NBC, MSNBC, ABC, Drudge Report, Trump, the Vatican, or anyone else. Simply click on any of those links and find where the bill says what you claim it says.

Anything else I will consider pure propaganda.

TheRedneck




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