Free Will?

Originally posted by Valhall
I call it a perfect gift...and the recipients less than perfect.

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well let's see,

According to legend, God created all then Adam, he wanted company and God willed it. Now did God give us free will or did Eve exercise it? For Gods restriction was not to eat the fruit of one particular tree of knowledge. Thus not allowing us free will, our will was to be subservient to his will [ie; "thine will be done here on earth as it is in heaven"]
Therefore God did not give us free will. Eve, Adams desire and gift, exersized free will. Thus giving them knowledge and they were ashamed, got dressed, and left the garden. To live forever in the reality that was unveiled upon consumption of forbidden knowledge.
That reality that we are now consumed with and contolled by was created by the exercise of free will and it has become what now keeps us from exercising free will. What a paradox! For our will is limited by the constructs of the reality we have created, which is not reality at all. Except to those of us that have not regained the abililty to will by intent.
To see beyond what we have created, so that we may see creation.
I belive we had free will and lost it! Does God have free will? Maybe, maybe not. Just as a man and a woman no longer have free will once they have created life. Maybe it is also so with God in the begining he had free will to create and he did, now his will is subjigated to the needs of his creation.
And this is why all his decisions do not always fit as we would like them to.

TUT

Originally posted by tututkamen
According to legend, God created all then Adam, he wanted company and God willed it. Now did God give us free will or did Eve exercise it?

You ask that question as if these two things must be mutually exclusive. My answer as that the latter must be dependent on the first.

For Gods restriction was not to eat the fruit of one particular tree of knowledge. Thus not allowing us free will, our will was to be subservient to his will [ie; "thine will be done here on earth as it is in heaven"]
Therefore God did not give us free will. Eve, Adams desire and gift, exersized free will.

Eve, being the created, could not exercise what had not been imbued in her creation.

Furthermore, the example you quote is one of free will (on Eve's part) and obedience (or disoabedience on Adam's part).Obedience being subjugated to free-will. The angels, also created beings, do not possess free will, but are afforded the choice of obedience or nonobedience. The choice to follow (or not follow) a command is not the same as free will.

HOWEVER, the example you give is very interesting. First let us review the scripture. God gives the direct command to Adam (not Eve) that the particular fruit should not be taken. Adam passes on to Eve (as recorded in the scripture) God's command. Therefore, when Eve is tempted and confused by the "serpent" and decides to take the fruit she is the first example of free-will ( because she did not have first-hand knowledge of the commandment of God, only second-hand from Adam, which took an act of faith (FREE WILL!) on Eve's part. BUT, when Eve went to Adam and conveyed the "serpent's" words, Adam's decision was an act of disobedience (no free will needed). He had firsthand knowledge of what the Creator stated, he just chose not obey.

As for the rest of your post...I have nothing to say.

[Edited on 1-7-2003 by Valhall]

Valhall's right, angels DEFINETLY don't hav free will. Satan, being the second smartest being in the world would apologize 2 God and ask 4 forgiveness & b/c God is forgiving Lucifer would be reaccepted. However as fate has been chosen and destiny written, he must go on with his deciet and attempt 2 overthrow God in the final battle which he knows he will loose. If Lucifer had free will he would condemn himself 4 eternity but he must follow his fate which has limits set on it.

I appreciate your view Val, I just do not see the obediance versus non-obediance as being distinct from exercising will.
And what do you mean you got nothing to say about the rest? That is the most critical part, that is the way. Think about it.

tut tut

Lets take a closer lok here:

G-d created the "Garden of Eden".

G-d created Adam.

Adam was given the "Garden of Eden" as a place of habitation, a place to grow and harvest (eat). Adam was given dominion and thus became a 'caretaker'.

G-d commanded or forbid Adam from partaking of the fruit from the "Tree of Knowledge".

Adam became lonely or in need of help in 'caretaking', etc.

G-d thus created Eve from Adam.

Adam helped Eve to learn what he had come to understand about being a 'caretaker' in the Garden. He further enlightens her on G-d's command or forbiding from partaking of the "Tree of Knowledge".


So here goes, Eve was gathering or tending her 'area' of the Garden one day, and low and behold, she happens to run across the most beautiful creature in the animal world or in the Garden....the serpent. The serpent speaks.....and speaks in such a way (inticing, provocative, etc.) that she is mesmerized that such a beatiful creature could speak so knowledgeablely(?) and eloquently.

The serpent tells Eve, in short, that she nor Adam have nothing to fear, but fear itself, from partaking of the fruit from the "Tree of Knowledge". That, get this....indeed, nothing will happen other than you will know what G-d knows.....etc....etc.....

The bottom line to this is thus: Eve went and partook of the fruit from the "Tree of Knowledge". Why? Cause she made the freewill/choice to do so. The serpent just made a convincing case, adding 'fuel' to her reasoning of 'why' G-d had forbid them from eatting of the one tree out of all the vegetation in the Garden, that this one tree would be excluded. So, she walks up to the "Tree of Knowledge" and does indeed partake of the fruit by freewill/choice. Seeing that nothing happened, in her excitement, she takes the same fruit to Adam.

Adam after seeing and listening to her, realized what had transpired and tells her so. Eve, telling Adam that nothing bad had indeed hapened, starts trying to convince Adam to also partake of the fruit. Adam loved Eve. Adam partook of the fruit offered by Eve. Adam made a freewill/choice decision. No one was forced, nor made to partake of this fruit. Yes, the Tree acted as temptation but before Eve, Adam had obviously dealt with that temptation.

In short, both made a freewill/choice and thus, by natural law, also reaped the consequences of said action(s).


regards
seekerof

I agree that there may have been freewill involved in Adam's decision, however this disobeying of God's DIRECT commandment cannot be classified as such.

Here is why I make these two seemingly contradictory statements: 1.) To take the fruit (temptation in the matter does not figure into this part) in direct violation of commandment given by God to Adam is pure disobedience. This is equivalent to that of the disobience of fallen angels. 2.) But this must have been driven by something else. When Eve came to Adam, and tempted him with the "false knowledge" she had acquired, there must have been some doubt (read - lack of faith) in Adam concerning the powers of God; concerning the role of God relative to Adam's life. There could be no question of the EXISTENCE of God...Adam conversed freely with - had communion with - HIM. But, in this instance there must have been a doubt (fueled by Adam's pride) of what powers God truly engulfs.

For this reason, I believe we are both correct, in this we see the first act of free-will, and the first HUMAN act (at least in our age) of disobedience...but appears that the act of negative exorcising of free-will is the most contagious...hmmmm.

Originally posted by Valhall
I agree that there may have been freewill involved in Adam's decision, however this disobeying of God's DIRECT commandment cannot be classified as such.

Here is why I make these two seemingly contradictory statements: 1.) To take the fruit (temptation in the matter does not figure into this part) in direct violation of commandment given by God to Adam is pure disobedience. This is equivalent to that of the disobience of fallen angels. 2.) But this must have been driven by something else. When Eve came to Adam, and tempted him with the "false knowledge" she had acquired, there must have been some doubt (read - lack of faith) in Adam concerning the powers of God; concerning the role of God relative to Adam's life. There could be no question of the EXISTENCE of God...Adam conversed freely with - had communion with - HIM. But, in this instance there must have been a doubt (fueled by Adam's pride) of what powers God truly engulfs.

For this reason, I believe we are both correct, in this we see the first act of free-will, and the first HUMAN act (at least in our age) of disobedience...but appears that the act of negative exorcising of free-will is the most contagious...hmmmm.

Vahall, I do understand where you are coming from here but commandment or Ten commandment's is really mute. G-d gave us the freewill to make choice's which equate to decision's. Adam was given a commandment....does this not also incorporate that Adam also had the ability to disobey said commandment? If so, Adam had freewill/choice.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 1-7-2003 by Seekerof]

No, because the only disagreement you and I are having right now is semantics, but they TRUE semantics...the improper use of a term.

If you will oblige me, we might need to define for our discussion (I will allow you to do so) the term free will, because in a religious/spiritual context this term has a clear definition...

I am allowing that you have defined differently. That is okay as long as we can get it clear. Once you have clarfied what you mean by the term, I will have to eventually state the exact definition for the sake of others, because redefining this phrase leads to confusion, which is not good.

In short, I do not believe we are far apart...well, just be a couple of words!

Originally posted by Seekerof
First off define 'free will'/choice. Then define 'rightness' and wrongness'. Then ask yourself, is there an actual 'rightness' or wrongeness' in relation to 'freewill'/choice?
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I do believe I asked first Valhall.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 2-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Okay, you're not helping me out any. See, my point in asking you to state YOUR definition is to avoid an argue, and further a debate.

So I'm going to state what I interpret YOUR definition of freewill to be:

The power of choice.

Am I clear so far on how you are using the term?

I 'm late on this but that needent stop me...

Adam and Eve were given free will ofcourse, they only were not to eat of the tree of knowledge/life. Did God want them to be ignorant? I believe not. His time table was different for us. Did Adam relinquish his place given by God when he accepted the fruit, thereby aquiescing to Eve and lessening his headship? I think so.
Since we now have the 'knowledge', our use of free will is in evidence.

Originally posted by Valhall
Okay, you're not helping me out any. See, my point in asking you to state YOUR definition is to avoid an argue, and further a debate.

So I'm going to state what I interpret YOUR definition of freewill to be:

The power of choice.

Am I clear so far on how you are using the term?

Here's how I see this whole thing:

Adam and Eve --- the mythical names we have given to represent first Man and first Woman --- were, in my opinion, the Father and Mother of the human experience.

What has been described as the Fall of Adam was actually, in my opinion, his actual upliftment --- the greatest single event in the history of humankind. Why? For without it, the world or relativity would not exist. The act of Adam and Eve was not original sin, but, in truth, the first blessing. I thank them from the bottom of my heart. Why? Cause I know those eyebrows are raising. For in being the first to make a 'wrong' choice, Adam and Eve produced the possibility of making any choice at all.

regards
seekerof

Following unserpentine logic:

Adam found an appendage that seemed to insert itself quite well in Eve's orifice.

Why did the Almighty Creator Of All Things Good provide an appendage, an orifice, and a snake to make things add up?

Who was the evil one?

The Almighty Creator Of All Things Good, or the very observant and creative snake/engineer?

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Following unserpentine logic:

Adam found an appendage that seemed to insert itself quite well in Eve's orifice.

Why did the Almighty Creator Of All Things Good provide an appendage, an orifice, and a snake to make things add up?

Who was the evil one?

The Almighty Creator Of All Things Good, or the very observant and creative snake/engineer?

I would anwser, yet your post was somewhat serpintine!!
Are you asking whether Adam's make up was good? Was the serpent evil or not?..................help

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by Valhall
Okay, you're not helping me out any. See, my point in asking you to state YOUR definition is to avoid an argue, and further a debate.

So I'm going to state what I interpret YOUR definition of freewill to be:

The power of choice.

Am I clear so far on how you are using the term?

Here's how I see this whole thing:

Adam and Eve --- the mythical names we have given to represent first Man and first Woman --- were, in my opinion, the Father and Mother of the human experience.

What has been described as the Fall of Adam was actually, in my opinion, his actual upliftment --- the greatest single event in the history of humankind. Why? For without it, the world or relativity would not exist. The act of Adam and Eve was not original sin, but, in truth, the first blessing. I thank them from the bottom of my heart. Why? Cause I know those eyebrows are raising.

For in being the first to make a 'wrong' choice, Adam and Eve produced the possibility of making any choice at all.

regards
seekerof

You are so right. In such a deep in profound way. We are NOT under the plotted out course of predistination, and we ARE on the path of free-will do to this very thing.

Valhall, I do think, in essence, we are both on the same 'wave-length'. "Wrongness" or "Rightness" is not a significant factor. Its the act of love, through G-d, that we have the freewill and choice to return that love. It is in that love, that we truly define ourselves and G-d.

regards
seekerof

I'm with you all the way Seeker!

THAT is free-will. Non-meritorious, non-action-based...LOVE...

that's it!