Germany's preferred replacement for the Tornado

a reply to: anzha
I don´t believe that the Luftwaffe heard from this via press. They knew before and that was only one of the reasons the general was kicked.

Airbus must have been against this idea from the beginning. Since Germany and France are tight partners, both industrial nations that want to keep citizens employed, this was clear as day to me.

One thing I like about the current idea Airbus brings in is that there won´t be a single jet but several key-technologies.

That again sounds not so bad to me. We need something in 6-7 years from now. By then the F-35 will have developed into a formidable asset. But it was clear that by "backstabbing Airbus", this general had to leave.

Rumors are, this was not the only reason but incompetence also. Who knows what´s true or not.

Well, this is a chance for Europe to build a real 6th gen platform...and to put it on the market. There is no way on earth that a true 6th generation platform can be viable just with Germany and France as buyers: realistically they will have to get other EU nations involved - and the UK. Whatever the political issues of departing the EU, British aerospace known how is needed if such a plane is to be viable not just against whatever the Russians come up with, but with what the US will start selling after the F-35 / F-22 are ready for next generation.

Tornados phasing out starts in 7 years. They aint going to come up with something like that before time runs out.

It´s seems they are going with eurofighter upgrades until in 2040. Because the new FCAS (future air combat system) won´t be operational until then.

a reply to: verschickter

Lockheed, thy name is Don Quixote.

www.flightglobal.com...

a reply to: anzha

I thought it was interesting Boeing offered the Growler for a partial replacement.

a reply to: Zaphod58

That was interesting. However, I doubt the Germans will bite at that either.

originally posted by: verschickter
Tornados phasing out starts in 7 years. They aint going to come up with something like that before time runs out.

It´s seems they are going with eurofighter upgrades until in 2040. Because the new FCAS (future air combat system) won´t be operational until then.

Perhaps the UK will offer them some of their retiring GR4s to keep the German Tonkas flying :-)

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: anzha

I thought it was interesting Boeing offered the Growler for a partial replacement.

The reason for this is, Germany promised to build up squadron Level electronic attack capability for Nato operations. The Growler would be a natural choice but they'll settle for a pod based solution on the Eurofighter IMO.

Speaking of which, Germany wants the Eurofighter to carry B61s to replace the Tornados in the nuclear role.

Germany presses U.S. on potential Eurofighter nuclear role

Germany’s defence ministry sent a letter to the U.S. Defense Department in April asking whether certification of the European jets was possible, how much it would cost, and how long it would take, the sources told Reuters on condition of anonymity.

Top U.S. Air Force and Pentagon officials are working to respond to the German query, the sources said.

uk.reuters.com...

If politics come into play this will get interesting.

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

Try DCS World! Lots of aircraft available and more in the pipeline!

Py

a reply to: mightmight

If politics come into play this will get interesting.

Nuclear weapons are involved. Euro vs American defense industry involved. The current administration is involved.

How would politics NOT come into play?

F-35 is out. Told ya.

Final decision is between Eurofighter and the Super Hornet. They will procure them only as a stopgap measure until the 2040s when FCAS is supposed to be ready (like hell it will).

There is also talk about splitting the procurement between the types, probably due to the nuclear mission.
That would probably be about the worst thing they could do.

Germany officially knocks F-35 out of competition to replace Tornado

COLOGNE, Germany ― Germany’s Ministry of Defence has officially ruled out the F-35 joint strike fighter as a choice to replace its aging Tornado fleet, Defense News has learned.

An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet. The news was first reported by German site AugenGeradeaus.

www.defensenews.com...

orignial source (German): augengeradeaus.net...

Its a wonder they didnt look towards SAAB.

a reply to: Blackfinger

The problem is that the aircraft has to be certified to carry US B61 nuclear bombs. If they don't get EF certified, they have no other option but to buy US hardware. And the safest choice there seems to be F-18.

a reply to: moebius

They would never choose SAAB over Airbus Military anyway.

About the F-18, they also promised Nato to build up an EW capable squadron in the near future. Dunno how they got into that one, maybe because of the capabilities of the Tornado ECR variant.
The Eurofighter of course is not an EW aircraft, they'd either need to come up with some update and pod based solution, tell Nato they cant deliver or purchase something that can do the job.
SEAD / EW aircraft are pretty popular with German politicans though. Such aircraft (in their minds) dont drop evil bombs on innocent civilians, they just fence with the other side a bit. Preferably in a non letal way.
So that mission is not going anywhere and the EA-18G would just be about the perfect solution for it.
What i can see happen here is they end up purchasing a squadrons worth of EA-18G to replace the capabilities of the Tornado ECRs and a squadron of F/A-18E/F for the nuclear role.
That would leave room for additional Eurofighters which is what this exercise is really about.

Anyway, dont hold your breath on anything happening anytime soon. The SPD (coalition partner of Merkels CDU in the Bundestag) already came out yesterday, saying they are not sure if they want a stopgap solution at all. Tornados will be flying for years to come anyway and so forth.
No good english sources on this, but they bascially said that they dont like a) buying American warplanes, b) buying from Trump, c) buying anything nuclear capable and d) do anything nuclear related when the INF treaty and therefore *PEACE in EUROPE!!!111* is up in the air.
They could probably support the purchase of Eurofighters but i dont think anything more will be done by the current Administration.

France is threatening to kill the FCAS if Germany buys an American plane.

Germany is definitely in a pickle then. Has the Eurofighter been certified for the nuclear mission?

a reply to: anzha

No. They want to certify them, but the way Washington works it'll be at least a year after the initial request to even start the process.

a reply to: anzha

Let France kill it. Buy Growlers. Europe is on going to be able to support one healthy program. Both programs know this. The two teams are just jockeying for order totals to see whether UK or France gets primacy on the requirement tradoffs, imo. A merger or cancellation seems inevitable.

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: ManFromEurope

If I may ask, why is the F-35 unsuitable?

cmon really?....we have foreigners, anarchists, and know-nothings who talk out of their a** on ATS, and you are wondering why there is disagreement as to the effectiveness of the F-35?.....the only one I half-way trust with knowledge of this, is zaphod58.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: anzha

No. They want to certify them, but the way Washington works it'll be at least a year after the initial request to even start the process.

I dont think *please certify the Eurofighter, we dont want to buy American* will fly in the age of Trump. At least if he notices it.

If German politicans had some balls, they'd take up the French offer for shared nuclear force and integrate the ASMP or its successor with the Eurofighter.

a reply to: mightmight

Even if they go through with it they're almost certainly looking at two years minimum once they get the go ahead, if everything goes perfectly. With the condition of their current equipment they might not have enough time go get it done.