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Germany's preferred replacement for the Tornado

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posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 12:09 AM
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a reply to: anzha

alert5.com...


Welp. That pretty much definitely means under no circumstances - no way! no how! - is germany ever buying the F-35.




posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 04:17 AM
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a reply to: anzha

I don't see how the Typhoon would be suitable for replacing the Tornado in the post-2025 world.

What the hell are they thinking?



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 04:51 AM
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originally posted by: C0bzz
a reply to: anzha


What the hell are they thinking?


Politicans want to buy German/European, supporting the defense industry at home and safe/create jobs. Nobody relevant is looking at military capabilities to make the decision.
The sacking of the Chief of the Luftwaffe while huge is not surprising either. If you go up against Von der Leyen and the BMVg, you'll ruin your career. She's as ruthless as she is incompetent and unsuited for her post.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 05:20 AM
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a reply to: mightmight

This is completely unacceptable for a major part of NATO and basically the leader of the EU, especially in todays threat environment.

Not the first time Germany makes bad decisions relating to national security. Nordstream2 for example.

I hope they don't realize this until it's too late but for now they are asleep at the wheel.
edit on 17/3/18 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 07:55 AM
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originally posted by: C0bzz
a reply to: mightmight

This is completely unacceptable for a major part of NATO and basically the leader of the EU, especially in todays threat environment. Not the first time Germany makes bad decisions relating to national security. Nordstream2 for example.


yeah well ... if a lost world war is not enough for procrument politics to change in Germany nothing will
This has literally been going on since there was a modern German nation.

But in all seriousness, whether the Luftwaffe gets the F-35 or Typhoons Tranche 3/4 is probably the very least problem the Bundeswehr has atm.
I'd worry much more about the state the Heer is in these days when it comes to meeting NATO commitments in case of war.



I hope they don't realize this until it's too late but for now they are asleep at the wheel.


They actually want to be asleep at the wheel. Most of the German politicans dont want strong german armed forces.
They dont want to confront Russia either or something crazy like that. If you think Germany would actually fully go to war with Russia over Putin invading Estonia or something you are kidding yourself.
The People wouldnt stand for it either. Sentiments in Germany are quite different from Eastern Europe or the West. Russia (and to a somewhat lesser extend Putin) is not seen as the bad guy by the German People. Most politicans save for the far right and far left have a different attitude towards Russia, but thats very unpopular.



posted on Mar, 19 2018 @ 02:40 AM
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originally posted by: face23785

Germany? Eh, I mean the war was over 70 years ago. My favorite Merkel moment was last year when Trump was talking about the NATO allies needing to beef up their military and Merkel said something to the effect of "Are you sure you want us arming up?"


The Germans have brilliantly used the fear of resurgent Nazism to limit their defense spending - been doing it for 50+ years. At first it was frustrating for them, but they soon realised "Hey, USA, Brits and French soldiers on our land...but they're really harmless. And we're saving a FORTUNE! Let's keep them as long as we can". Am simplifying a bit, but that is essentially it. In truth, right wing extremism is far more prevalent in France, the UK and Italy than Germany...to say nothing of the New Nazis in Russia.

But a 6th gen fighter program...that is something else. No way Germany will go it alone on that without massive investment and nuclear bomb proof financial guarantees from as many other nations as possible...i.e France and the UK, as well as Italy and Spain and likely everyone else. Technical risks are high...and corresponding financial risks the same.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 01:59 AM
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Why would Germany replace Tornados when they performed so well in recent times.

In any case, the German desperation, to get the UK back in the EU at all costs, is something amazing at this point.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 03:04 AM
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a reply to: Flanker86
Tonkas are old now and parts and structures are expensive to replace.Same as what happened with the F111,s which were another swing wing.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 03:09 AM
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OK, the source is a month old, but...


The ministry said in December that the Eurofighter Typhoon was the leading candidate to replace its Tornado jets beginning in 2025. It said it did not share the view of German air force chief Georg Muellner, who had indicated he preferred Lockheed Martin Corp's stealthy F-35 fighter jet.


USA Today source

Pretty much sums it up. Germany does not actually want a military, or rather, Germany does not want to spend money on a military, preferring to sit behind the protection of NATO. Anything they buy will end up sitting in the corner gathering dust. They spend well below the 2% baseline of GDP as required for NATO countries and their military is in shambles. Take this example of German military pointlessness...


Number of weapon systems ready for action: Typhoon jets: 39 of 128 Tornado jets: 26 of 93 CH-53 transport helicopters: 16 of 72 NH-90 transport helicopters: 13 of 58 Tigre attack helicopters: 12 of 62 A400M transport aircraft: 3 of 15 Leopard 2 tanks: 105 of 224 Frigates: 5 of 13 Submarines: 0 out of 6


Defence Journal source



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 05:58 AM
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a reply to: paraphi

Nah, the issue they are facing is that, for an originally defense oriented armed force "Federal Defense", they are increasingly active abroad. I think they have ongoing missions in like a dozen countries. So they have to adjust their spending. And they are doing it, albeit somewhat reluctantly.

The other issue is selling it to the public, which is not interested in military interventionism.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:46 AM
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a reply to: moebius

The German military, or Bundeswehr, has very minor commitments abroad, the the largest being Afghanistan at c. 1,000 providing training and advice to Afghan forces.

They do not abide by their commitments to NATO to maintain a defence budget of 2% of GDP. Germany spends a paltry 1.2% on defence, thus doing less than many other NATO nations.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:52 AM
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originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: paraphi

Nah, the issue they are facing is that, for an originally defense oriented armed force "Federal Defense", they are increasingly active abroad. I think they have ongoing missions in like a dozen countries. So they have to adjust their spending. And they are doing it, albeit somewhat reluctantly.

The other issue is selling it to the public, which is not interested in military interventionism.


The activity abroad is actually decreasing. There are 8 ongoing missions with 3900 troops deployed, including 3 maritime missions - SOPHIA, Atalanta and UNIFIL. Germany is very active in Mali (helping their French Allies essentiall) and KFOR is still going on. But thats about it. There are no more major deployments to Afghanistan and a small high level training /education mission in Iraq aside, Germany is not involved in the entire Syrian / ISIS situation atm.
Overall 'foreign adventurism' is winding down, the German DoD and politicans at large want to focus on conventional defense with Eastern Europe and the Russian threat as the main factor.
But thats only part of the picture. In fact, the capability of the Bundeswehr to deploy troops abroad has decreased besides all atempts to reform the service. Money is tight, equipment is sparse, bureaucracy is rampant, recruitment is down and personal retention rates misrable.
Mostly of couse as you point out, the public doesnt likely military anything and the politicans no they cant win on the issue.



posted on Apr, 25 2018 @ 06:18 AM
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Just to keep this thread alive for just one more post....


“As soon as Germany becomes an F-35 member nation, cooperation on all combat aircraft issues with France will die,” Hoke said in an interview with Welt Am Sonntag


Article Defence Journal

Article in German, for those of you who are not linguistically challenged



posted on Apr, 25 2018 @ 06:54 AM
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a reply to: paraphi

What does "member nation" mean? Does that mean joining the JSF program (probably impossible at this stage) or simply buying the F-35?

The reason is the former would have killed all hope as it would have engaged German industry, the latter wouldn't have, presumably Germany would still want to build its own fighters then.



posted on Apr, 25 2018 @ 07:31 AM
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a reply to: C0bzz
It means simply buying the F-35. There is no desire in Germany to 'join the JSF program'.
There is actually hardly any debate at all. The MoD prefers the Eurofighter in order to strengthen the European defense industry, the Chief of the Luftwaffe who preferred the F-35 has been fired, the F-35 has a bad reputation in Germany, as has Trump etc.
So Eurofighter it is.
The only problem left is nuclear sharing. The Eurofighter is not nuclear capable / not certified to carry the B61. The US could block that which would create some headaches in Berlin, but i think thats unlikely anyway.

Eurofighter bid to replace the Tornados is moving forward btw:
www.janes.com...



posted on Apr, 25 2018 @ 09:34 AM
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a reply to: mightmight

It's been officially announced. A collaboration between Airbus and Dassault (France and Germany).

Airbus press release

Some mutterings around this expected announcement around the snub to the UK, so hopefully the UK cash-cow will locate its future focus elsewhere. I wonder what will become of the UK/French UCAV work going on at the moment, as that piece of work is now part of this Airbus/Dassault love-in. No doubt the French will have plundered all the UK tech on tech on that one.



posted on Apr, 25 2018 @ 10:33 AM
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originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: mightmight

It's been officially announced. A collaboration between Airbus and Dassault (France and Germany).


Dont confuse the two projects. FUCAS is long term Eurofighter/Rafale replacement, service introduction in the 40s.
This is not surprising in the least and was settled months ago.
Of course itll be a desaster, delivering less than the F-35 will be twenty years from now at two or three times the cost.

But Germany is also looking to replace their Tornados by 2025ish with additional Eurofighters being the most likely replacement instead of the F-35. There was never any Intention of replacing the Eurofighter with the F-35.

Looking at it from a service perspective, procuring more Eurofighters is actually the right decision for the wrong reasons.
Yes, the F-35 is the more capable aircraft, but we are talking about the Luftwaffe. Readiness rates for the Eurofighter are bad to say the least, procuring more of them will grow the industrial support base, ensuring more combat capable aircraft.Procuring another aircraft type in small numbers will but an additional burden on the force, wastinig limited ressources for little to no gain.
The same is true for combat ready pilots. They are not nearly enough of them and many are leaving in frustration because they cant even get enough flying hours to keep their license. Consolidating around one aircraft type should alleviate that situation as well.
Also, with the Luftwaffe procuring more Eurofighters there is at least a chance to invest in the rest of the fleet too. Germany has been very reluctant to upgrade the AtG capabilities of their Eurofighters in the past, with the Tornado going away and more money invested into the aircraft we might see improvements all across the fleet.

At the end of the day, i'd take ~100 actual combat capable Eurofighters over the current #show + a couple of F-35s.
The F-35 is the better aircraft but its not like Germany will ever use them in a first hour / first day type scenario anyway. Doesnt really matter what aircraft carries the bombs once the door is kicked in.

Anyway, all musings aside, this is how it will go down:
TaktLwG 33 gets pending Eurofighter Tranche 3, pushing the order to the original 60+
TaktLwG 51 transitions to an Recce UAV
If they get lucky Tranche 2 Eurofighters get some more upgrades.
Thats it.



posted on Apr, 25 2018 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: anzha

And in my opinion it´s a stupid decision. It´s just local lobyyism and v.Leyen messing up as always.

France is building up pressure the big way, this is what Dirk Hoke from Airbus has to say about the topic, two days ago to "Welt am Sonntag" a big german sunday newspaper:



"Sobald Deutschland F-35-Nation wird, ist die Zusammenarbeit bei allen Kampfflugzeugthemen mit Frankreich gestorben", sagte Airbus Rüstungschef Dirk Hoke der "Welt am Sonntag".
www.aero.de...


My translation:
The moment Germany becomes a F-35-Nation, cooperation on all topics regarding fighter aircrafts with France has died.

Google translation:

Once Germany becomes F-35 nation, cooperation on all fighter aircraft issues with France has died


Well, and that sealed the fate for the F-35.
edit on 25-4-2018 by verschickter because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2018 @ 03:09 PM
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a reply to: verschickter

I think its fate was sealed when they canned the Luftwaffe general over his vocal support for the F-35. (and I hope for other things...otherwise, ojee!)



posted on Apr, 25 2018 @ 09:07 PM
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originally posted by: C0bzz
a reply to: anzha

I don't see how the Typhoon would be suitable for replacing the Tornado in the post-2025 world.

What the hell are they thinking?


Should be the Twister!

Lol, fail.


edit on 4 25 2018 by burgerbuddy because: (no reason given)



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