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Germany's preferred replacement for the Tornado

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posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 12:09 AM
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a reply to: anzha

alert5.com...


Welp. That pretty much definitely means under no circumstances - no way! no how! - is germany ever buying the F-35.




posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 04:17 AM
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a reply to: anzha

I don't see how the Typhoon would be suitable for replacing the Tornado in the post-2025 world.

What the hell are they thinking?



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 04:51 AM
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originally posted by: C0bzz
a reply to: anzha


What the hell are they thinking?


Politicans want to buy German/European, supporting the defense industry at home and safe/create jobs. Nobody relevant is looking at military capabilities to make the decision.
The sacking of the Chief of the Luftwaffe while huge is not surprising either. If you go up against Von der Leyen and the BMVg, you'll ruin your career. She's as ruthless as she is incompetent and unsuited for her post.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 05:20 AM
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a reply to: mightmight

This is completely unacceptable for a major part of NATO and basically the leader of the EU, especially in todays threat environment.

Not the first time Germany makes bad decisions relating to national security. Nordstream2 for example.

I hope they don't realize this until it's too late but for now they are asleep at the wheel.
edit on 17/3/18 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 07:55 AM
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originally posted by: C0bzz
a reply to: mightmight

This is completely unacceptable for a major part of NATO and basically the leader of the EU, especially in todays threat environment. Not the first time Germany makes bad decisions relating to national security. Nordstream2 for example.


yeah well ... if a lost world war is not enough for procrument politics to change in Germany nothing will
This has literally been going on since there was a modern German nation.

But in all seriousness, whether the Luftwaffe gets the F-35 or Typhoons Tranche 3/4 is probably the very least problem the Bundeswehr has atm.
I'd worry much more about the state the Heer is in these days when it comes to meeting NATO commitments in case of war.



I hope they don't realize this until it's too late but for now they are asleep at the wheel.


They actually want to be asleep at the wheel. Most of the German politicans dont want strong german armed forces.
They dont want to confront Russia either or something crazy like that. If you think Germany would actually fully go to war with Russia over Putin invading Estonia or something you are kidding yourself.
The People wouldnt stand for it either. Sentiments in Germany are quite different from Eastern Europe or the West. Russia (and to a somewhat lesser extend Putin) is not seen as the bad guy by the German People. Most politicans save for the far right and far left have a different attitude towards Russia, but thats very unpopular.



posted on Mar, 19 2018 @ 02:40 AM
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originally posted by: face23785

Germany? Eh, I mean the war was over 70 years ago. My favorite Merkel moment was last year when Trump was talking about the NATO allies needing to beef up their military and Merkel said something to the effect of "Are you sure you want us arming up?"


The Germans have brilliantly used the fear of resurgent Nazism to limit their defense spending - been doing it for 50+ years. At first it was frustrating for them, but they soon realised "Hey, USA, Brits and French soldiers on our land...but they're really harmless. And we're saving a FORTUNE! Let's keep them as long as we can". Am simplifying a bit, but that is essentially it. In truth, right wing extremism is far more prevalent in France, the UK and Italy than Germany...to say nothing of the New Nazis in Russia.

But a 6th gen fighter program...that is something else. No way Germany will go it alone on that without massive investment and nuclear bomb proof financial guarantees from as many other nations as possible...i.e France and the UK, as well as Italy and Spain and likely everyone else. Technical risks are high...and corresponding financial risks the same.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 01:59 AM
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Why would Germany replace Tornados when they performed so well in recent times.

In any case, the German desperation, to get the UK back in the EU at all costs, is something amazing at this point.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 03:04 AM
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a reply to: Flanker86
Tonkas are old now and parts and structures are expensive to replace.Same as what happened with the F111,s which were another swing wing.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 03:09 AM
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OK, the source is a month old, but...


The ministry said in December that the Eurofighter Typhoon was the leading candidate to replace its Tornado jets beginning in 2025. It said it did not share the view of German air force chief Georg Muellner, who had indicated he preferred Lockheed Martin Corp's stealthy F-35 fighter jet.


USA Today source

Pretty much sums it up. Germany does not actually want a military, or rather, Germany does not want to spend money on a military, preferring to sit behind the protection of NATO. Anything they buy will end up sitting in the corner gathering dust. They spend well below the 2% baseline of GDP as required for NATO countries and their military is in shambles. Take this example of German military pointlessness...


Number of weapon systems ready for action: Typhoon jets: 39 of 128 Tornado jets: 26 of 93 CH-53 transport helicopters: 16 of 72 NH-90 transport helicopters: 13 of 58 Tigre attack helicopters: 12 of 62 A400M transport aircraft: 3 of 15 Leopard 2 tanks: 105 of 224 Frigates: 5 of 13 Submarines: 0 out of 6


Defence Journal source



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 05:58 AM
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a reply to: paraphi

Nah, the issue they are facing is that, for an originally defense oriented armed force "Federal Defense", they are increasingly active abroad. I think they have ongoing missions in like a dozen countries. So they have to adjust their spending. And they are doing it, albeit somewhat reluctantly.

The other issue is selling it to the public, which is not interested in military interventionism.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:46 AM
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a reply to: moebius

The German military, or Bundeswehr, has very minor commitments abroad, the the largest being Afghanistan at c. 1,000 providing training and advice to Afghan forces.

They do not abide by their commitments to NATO to maintain a defence budget of 2% of GDP. Germany spends a paltry 1.2% on defence, thus doing less than many other NATO nations.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:52 AM
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originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: paraphi

Nah, the issue they are facing is that, for an originally defense oriented armed force "Federal Defense", they are increasingly active abroad. I think they have ongoing missions in like a dozen countries. So they have to adjust their spending. And they are doing it, albeit somewhat reluctantly.

The other issue is selling it to the public, which is not interested in military interventionism.


The activity abroad is actually decreasing. There are 8 ongoing missions with 3900 troops deployed, including 3 maritime missions - SOPHIA, Atalanta and UNIFIL. Germany is very active in Mali (helping their French Allies essentiall) and KFOR is still going on. But thats about it. There are no more major deployments to Afghanistan and a small high level training /education mission in Iraq aside, Germany is not involved in the entire Syrian / ISIS situation atm.
Overall 'foreign adventurism' is winding down, the German DoD and politicans at large want to focus on conventional defense with Eastern Europe and the Russian threat as the main factor.
But thats only part of the picture. In fact, the capability of the Bundeswehr to deploy troops abroad has decreased besides all atempts to reform the service. Money is tight, equipment is sparse, bureaucracy is rampant, recruitment is down and personal retention rates misrable.
Mostly of couse as you point out, the public doesnt likely military anything and the politicans no they cant win on the issue.




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