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Second Amendment Advocates Have Blood on Their Hands

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posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 11:23 AM
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quite a few emotional responses there I see....




posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 12:05 PM
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Well lots of decent debate on both sides and also lots of "mud" slinging since I was last on. Trying to talk to Americans about gun laws can get very heated on both sides, as both sides have some misconceptions about history and politics in both countries.
I liked how one member back a few pages blamed Great Britain for most of the worlds woes, and how we have no idea what freedom is, very entertaining!! But us Brits also can't see how the American idea of freedom/right to bare arms is so engrained in your daily lives. We are so similar but so different that its maddening that neither side gets it.
We share TV, movies, music, a similar language which you guys call American but its really English (joking!) but then something so basic as this just gets so misunderstood when lots of people are killed.

We get news and docs' about BLM, the KKK, gun lobbyists, Gun deaths, the list goes on and you guys must get similar in the US about stuff in the UK.
So we come to ATS to disscus incidents like this as this is a world covering website not something that is purly American or British (even though it did start here in the UK!) and sometimes get told to mind our own business which can be a bit insulting. I've spoken before in other threads about how i feel that checks into gun ownership and mental illness should be looked at but got "shot" down (pun intended) by people jumping up and down about trying to ban guns which i've never said, Even this thread had a comment by one of you guys about getting on a plane and coming over here and shoting some one because we can't deffend ourselves.
It's when we read articles like this
Washington post article about child shootings
that we can't get the "gun nut" attitude. why the second amendment is rammed down our throats and it's your freedom thats at stake.

I hope this can give our American Family an idea why these threads start up from a UK ( My ) point of view?

edit on 7-11-2017 by Kurokage because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 12:13 PM
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a reply to: Kurokage

If i remove emotion from that link, its human life that is lost. Children and adults...human life is valuable.

The one point I'd like to have you take away is that the US is a very, very large nation with enormous diversity of geography. The majority of folks you talk to day in and day out come from urbanized areas where the day to day life experience is drastically different than the folks who are not living in urban centers.

From where I stand: if the folks in the city can't address their road rage issues, that isn't my problem. Does it suck that kids get shot by errant bullets in road rage and drive by shootings? Yes, it does. But in my day to day experience having the gun can be the difference between living and being lowered a few pegs on the food chain. Of course this isn't true risk, as you can literally go weeks without seeing something dangerous, and months without actually taking a shot on something dangerous. But in Alaska it can be more frequent (or so I understand). Point being, the behavior of people in drastically different geographies than me should not effect me on a day to day level. Even when some asshole shoots a child.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 12:15 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin


You second amendment advocates have blood on your hands.


That is just rubbish.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 12:33 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan


I get that America is very different across its vast geography (My younger Brother has lots of friends across America, he's a cosplay fanatic?!?! I've chatted with a few. One couple even lost there home after her partner shot himself in the leg by accident and they couldn't afford the care but they were more urban, has you put it) but you've even made the same mistake that I commented on



But in my day to day experience having the gun can be the difference


Most of us understand how engrained firearms are in your society for good or bad, I'm not suggesting you remove them or even attempt to. its just how different our idea of keeping a firearm safe or how a child could even get a firearm from a parent without permission (Sandyhook), or how health or criminal checks seem to us like someone checking for a out of date library book with a few ticks and crosses (this recent event), not a country wide data base that needs a ok from.
Here in the UK if you want a firearm, you have to prove that it will be kept safe, you have to prove your mental state.

edit on 7-11-2017 by Kurokage because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 01:27 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
quite a few emotional responses there I see....


Well telling innocent people they're responsible for the crimes of others does that man.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 01:33 PM
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a reply to: Kurokage

The key difference in the UK view and the US view is the difference between a right and a privilege. One doesn't have to prove a fitness to exercise a right. Its why old people can have their drivers license taken...driving isn't a right. Travel is, and they are still free to travel.

Most of the kinds cited in that article are victims of errant bullets in drive by's. That said...i grew up having free access to guns as a child. We'd shoot .22's at cans. We'd take the 20 ga out for a pheasant hunt. Mom and dad weren't often there, and we were taught how to handle the guns. I taught my son the same way, and he's carried a 9mm sidearm while hunting since he was 10, along with a 30.06 bolt action.

There are 2 kinds of kids who will typically end up with a gun: the curious and the troublemaker. The curious...those are the ones that something can be done about. The troublemakers...they'll do what they'll do regardless of mom and dad. If we believe different then we don't pay attention to child tobacco, booze, and/or drug use.

Accidents do happen. A big reason for why, in our schools as kids, "Where the red fern grows" was required reading in 2nd or 3rd grade. Its a great illustration of how accidents happen and cost peoples lives, and had an impact on us as kids reading it.

In high school most of us drove pickup trucks, and had rifles in our gun mounts in the headache rack during hunting season when we went to school. We all carried pocket knives, too.

I grew up in a different time, for sure. But im only 45...and the times have really only changed because the folks in the cities have lost their freaking minds.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 02:09 PM
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Think about this...even if you were able to get every gun ever made off of the streets which is not possible because so many are already out there and the bad guys wont give theirs up so easy, so you would have to track down every single gun and it would be impossible to get them all, there are millions of guns out there,

but even if they were all gone if a crazy person wants to kill a bunch of people they will find a way, they might build a explosive or use toxic gas or who knows what. they would find one of the thousands of ways you could kill a bunch of people quickly.... so you cant really blame people who like guns. i mean look at the boston marathon. look at 911 they flew planes into buildings.. people have plowed thew crowded in large vehicles mowing innocent people down..

i don't think second amendment people are to blame.. sick individuals are to blame



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 02:09 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

No mate, patriots who strive to uphold citizen's legitimate and deserved rights do NOT have blood on their hands, as they are in NO way responsible for the actions of a madman / terrorist / disgruntled employee / jealous spouse / evil swine / greedy partner / etc etc, simply for striving to uphold rights that keep the citizenry in general safer.

Much the same as Volvo / Ford / DAF / Isuzu / etc etc are in NO way responsible for the above lists of deranged people when their trucks are used by them to slaughter scores of people.

Unless of course you disagree?



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 02:13 PM
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So, it turns out that the federal govt is partially to blame. Laws on the books to prevent this person from acquiring a firearm did nothing to prevent this tragedy.

It all comes down to a clerical error by the USAF...not the NRA....not anyone who supports the 2nd amendment...just a dumb, tragic mistake.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 02:25 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin


As you probably know...the U.S. has a big drug abuse problem in our cities/towns, and is rapidly expanding in suburbia and rural areas. Laws against the sale or use of these black market drugs has not curtailed the use of them --- Neither will gun laws simply curtail the sale of black market guns, which help's fuel a drug war against other violent street gangs and innocent people. The only thing that certain irresponsible gun laws do: Is letting the criminals have guns, while honest, decent law-abiding citizens walk around our streets virtually defenseless against unwanted violent attacks by street gangs.


And if Armageddon does come: Don't come knocking on my door...asking for help --- 'Do yourself a favor --- Get a firearm.'


edit on 7-11-2017 by Erno86 because: added a few words

edit on 7-11-2017 by Erno86 because: added a quote



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 02:59 PM
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"Church shooter escaped mental health facility after attacking wife and stepson in 2012."


quote: CBS News

www.twitter.com...
edit on 7-11-2017 by Erno86 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 03:41 PM
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Just more of it is always the fault of someone or something other than the person who did it.

The man should have been locked up until he was safe, if ever.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 04:04 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Now why do you suppose that is, I wonder??

Could it have something to do with baseless slander, perhaps? Maybe?



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 04:19 PM
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a reply to: roadgravel

Well, in this case there is fault with the federal govt and the military. If the USAF did not report the spouse/child abuse because the fed govt did not require them to do so, then there is a responsibility on the government's part. This needs to be fixed.

That said, the individual who shot up the church is completely responsible for this heinous act, but the govt is complicit.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 04:21 PM
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originally posted by: projectvxn

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
quite a few emotional responses there I see....


Well telling innocent people they're responsible for the crimes of others does that man.


"Blood on your hands" is a figure of speech I do not mean you have literally killed these people I mean that your refusal to act and to change is preventing change taking place that could save lives.

I am not saying that this makes you as bad as the shooter.

I dont know, perhaps the phrase "blood on your hands" is a UK thing



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan




The key difference in the UK view and the US view is the difference between a right and a privilege. One doesn't have to prove a fitness to exercise a right. Its why old people can have their drivers license taken...driving isn't a right. Travel is, and they are still free to travel.


Well actually you could say the same about guns, the right to bare arms is not the same as the right to own a gun.

You could still have the right to bare arms but without a gun, much in the same way as with a car you would still have your right only it becomes slightly more limited.

Sure you take away a car you still have the right to freedom of travel only its more limited, same with guns, take away the guns or say even limit the amount of ammunition owned, you still have the right to defend yourself only it becomes more limited.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 04:31 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

That is what is happening right now you are all sitting back doing nothing, preventing change and the result is a mass shooting almost every day.

You second amendment advocates have blood on your hands.


The system failed...this guy should have never been able to buy guns..end of story. What if he chained the doors and burnt the place to the ground, what if he ran a few dozen over with a truck...what if... Freedom and security do not go hand in hand...you can't stop anyone from killing if that is their plan, and when they don't care if they die in the process it makes it 10 times worst to prevent.

We just had a person run a lot of people over in NY and if he didn't hit that school bus he might have killed 100s, so where is your "blood on your hands" post for that one too?



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 04:38 PM
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a reply to: lakenheath24

Lmao! Thats awesome.



posted on Nov, 7 2017 @ 04:48 PM
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a reply to: Feltrick

The man smuggled fire arms onto his AF base with the intention of killing the chain of command.

Seems important if he is going to be in society and important that gun control is aware of it. But that just me.



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