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Mental Illness and Gun Rights

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posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 05:20 AM
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originally posted by: Kettu
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Thanks, I appreciate it.

This is one issue that really gets me worked up. I hate how everyone wants to reduce this issue down to some simple answer, discuss it for a bit and then just forget and move on...only to wash/rinse/repeat in a few weeks or months.

America needs to do some serious soul-searching. It isn't the guns, the pills, the rock music or video games. It isn't one single thing, but a combination of a TON of little things...

It's a bunch of things that we've just sort of let happen to all of us as a society for a long, long time. We're always looking "forward" or "backward" in this country, but never looking at where we are right now. How things are, and if we're truly OK with how things are.

It's always "we should be here!" or "things were better then!" ... but when's the last time we as a nation took a real decent inventory of our current culture? Who "we" are as a nation? What we value? Where we are, have been, and want to go? When's the last time the people of this country really felt like their opinion on those questions mattered?

Ungh. It's depressing and frustrating at the same time. It's not a partisan issue. It's not a race issue. It's not a "gun" issue. It's so, so much more.

I guess the problem is so deep, vast, and wide people don't know where to start and want to just throw a band aid on it.



You are exactly correct.

Thank you for framing this larger context. We are constantly being pushed to look at issues from dualistic, binary, simplistic "ban/restrict or unrestricted gun rights," - name a hot button issue and we've been trained via politics and media and even in our schools and churches to "take a side" left vs right, or "pro-this vs anti-that."

This kind of thinking is great for people who want to lead one of those "teams" and whip people up against "the wrongheaded or evil other team." This site and our newspapers our TV and our pulpits carry on as if black and white thinkingb is somehow useful in solving complex systemic problems.

Sometimes I think this is purely unconsciouscand the result of learned thinking. Other times I see it as convenient manipulation of the public to keep us dumb and fighting so as to grease the wheels of political campaigns and activist issues.

We rehash the same old inflexible arguments over all our constructed "issues" that define who we vote for and who we hang out with - our "emotional tribe." We and our country get nowhere.

The same culture that fuels the gun debates rages on over abortion and control over our lives on various levels. We solve nothing unless we are willing to see the complexity of the, for lack of a better word, illnesses that afflict us in, as you have eloquently stated, our toxic culture.

We cannot improve our current conditions and illness without thinking in a new and more complex manner, which includes getting out of these manipulated, repetitive, circular arguments.

Are guns bad in and of themselves? No.
Are we going to solve all our problems with violence by banning or restricting them? No.

Gun violence ending in mass murder is like an outbreak of a disease where the body turns against itself. It's an ultimate expression of our dehumanized and disconnected culture, our sense of powerlessness to make our lives better, our lack of solutions and a dysfunctional governing structure that both promotes and relies on our dissatisfaction and anger to get our money and participation.

So, who wants to start breaking out of the paradigm of pain and solve the big picture? Where do we even begin??

A possible basic beginning is the willingness in good faith to connect with others outside of any agenda, to take away all labels of "the other" so that we can appreciate both our individual strengths and frailties. The constructed reality of a toxic culture was created by the lowest and most base parts of our brains, and that is what fires the rage and keeps us from seeing and solving our collective mess.

How does one reduce violence in the psyche of American culture? What factors lead to disenfranchisement, anger, toxicity, enmity and ultimately, expressions of anger and violence? Why do we have such high levels of mental instability and physical pain (opioids crisis?) in America? What are mass shootings the ultimate symptom of in our culture?


edit on 6-11-2017 by AboveBoard because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: Kettu

I don't buy all the mumbo jumbo pop psychology on why there's an occasional "mass" shooting.

There have always been the nuts and kooks and there have always been guns or whatever if you go crazy and want to kill.

Overthinking the logical reality-it's the "new" thing these days.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 07:43 AM
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Chicago is a Black problem. New York is a Muslim problem. LA Hispanic problem, but Las Vegas, Texas, Sandy Hook, Colorado are all Mental Problems.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 07:46 AM
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As a God-Fearing NRA member, what we need is more guns and less healthcare. Remember, you can't stop a bad guy with a gun with penicillin!



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 07:57 AM
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a reply to: EternalShadow

Sadly the USA hasn't classified Atheism as a mental defect. Yet.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 08:26 AM
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originally posted by: jjkenobi
a reply to: EternalShadow

Sadly the USA hasn't classified Atheism as a mental defect. Yet.


I know right, like I was just reading how the heinous invading hordes of Atheists killed all those people during the crusades.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 08:34 AM
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originally posted by: jjkenobi
a reply to: EternalShadow

Sadly the USA hasn't classified Atheism as a mental defect. Yet.


Yeah, listening to talking bushes and magical people is sane.




posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: Blueracer
Mentally ill people have God given and constitutional rights too. Those that have not committed a crime should not have their rights "taken away".


Psst, all Constitutionally protected rights are natural, or as you put it "God given". That piece of paper grants nothing

Each right has a corresponding responsibility. In the case of guns, it's the responsibility to not shoot yourself or someone else without cause.

If someone is mentally ill to the point where they can't safely handle firearms, they forfeit that right.

Why don't we see widespread advocacy for minors to carry guns or vote? Could it be because we as a society agree that they are unable to properly exercise the responsibility due to mental immaturity? If rights are "God-given" and inherent, we should have them from birth, correct? So why the age limits?



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: AboveBoard

^^ THIS guy "gets" it.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 11:41 AM
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originally posted by: Kettu
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Thanks, I appreciate it.

This is one issue that really gets me worked up. I hate how everyone wants to reduce this issue down to some simple answer, discuss it for a bit and then just forget and move on...only to wash/rinse/repeat in a few weeks or months.

America needs to do some serious soul-searching. It isn't the guns, the pills, the rock music or video games. It isn't one single thing, but a combination of a TON of little things...

It's a bunch of things that we've just sort of let happen to all of us as a society for a long, long time. We're always looking "forward" or "backward" in this country, but never looking at where we are right now. How things are, and if we're truly OK with how things are.

It's always "we should be here!" or "things were better then!" ... but when's the last time we as a nation took a real decent inventory of our current culture? Who "we" are as a nation? What we value? Where we are, have been, and want to go? When's the last time the people of this country really felt like their opinion on those questions mattered?

Ungh. It's depressing and frustrating at the same time. It's not a partisan issue. It's not a race issue. It's not a "gun" issue. It's so, so much more.

I guess the problem is so deep, vast, and wide people don't know where to start and want to just throw a band aid on it.



wow, this is the first time I have read one of your posts and not shook my head and smiled. It's a shame all that common sense get's restricted by partisan politics.

I fully agree that there are many factors in what makes this current society so much more violent than that of the past. In addition to some of your suggestions, there is the point that not many families have a parent at home to raise the kids, they both work. Religion is billed with a negative connotation by more people than before. The internet and MSM glorifies the killers in cases like this, if not on purpose, with the constant coverage and name recognition.

Not to be over nostalgic, but back in the early 80's this kind of thing wasn't on the radar of most. What has changed since then?



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: network dude

The movies were in fact training for this time, as they parallel ALL the time,this is "INVASION USA" ,remember?
Chuck isn't here so we improvise.
They're working on mutants,cloningTerminators..so TRAINING films.
I saw a movie called DAYLIGHTS END that is MOSTLY about firefighting zombies and raiders with realistic depictions.
I think if everyone saw EXACTLY what weapons do AND what the average guy with skills can do, EVERY TIME they are used on film,a few might sober up.
As of now I am a LIAR or programmed "KILLBOT"(It was the mantra I last heard,from someone who dislikes Trump)
When in fact I now operate on horrible coping skills due to exposure to war as do many.
In our judgement we are vulnerable to skittish civilians and it's aggravating,when we don't have any violent history or record JUST the skill set.
WORSE the Dems USE it as well.
If the LEOs continue to drop the ball, my work may start again...which will piss me off MORE.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 12:32 PM
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The solution to this problem is to make the society less course and violent and confrontational, but that somewhat pie-in-the-sky.


Or put more research in psychology where now all they do is give drugs to people. The old time Freudian psychology of trying to get to the root of these mental issues has gone the way of the 8 track



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 12:51 PM
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originally posted by: DanteGaland
a reply to: AboveBoard

^^ THIS guy "gets" it.


Thank you (and I'm a gal!)



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:08 PM
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Lets see what drugs he was on and for how long. That seems to be a reoccurring theme. Wife runs a funeral home and nearly half the business is suicide in the last few months. Lots of legal drugs in the people passing on.




posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:49 PM
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a reply to: cynicalheathen

im a mentally ill gun owner im very much infavor or the mentally ill haveing the choice to own fire arms and you nailed it with the hippa part no one has a right to know who is mentally ill and the definition of mental illness changes often some times for the better (being gay used to be a mental illness) some times for the worse

throw in the fact that the mentally ill are more often victims of violent crime then the perpetrators and it gets more muddy
news.ncsu.edu...


New research shows that almost one-third of adults with mental illness are likely to be victims of violence within a six-month period, and that adults with mental illness who commit violence are most likely to do so in residential settings. The study also finds a strong correlation between being a victim of violence and committing a violent act. The work was done by researchers at North Carolina State University; RTI International; the University of California, Davis; Simon Fraser University; and Duke University. “We hear about the link between violence and mental illness in the news, and we wanted to look not only at the notion that the mentally ill are a danger to others, but the possibility that they are also in danger,” says Dr. Sarah Desmarais, an assistant professor of psychology at NC State and lead author of a paper describing the work. The researchers compiled a database of 4,480 mentally ill adults who had answered questions about both committing violence and being victims of violence in the previous six months. The database drew from five earlier studies that focused on issues ranging from antipsychotic medications to treatment approaches. Those studies had different research goals, but all asked identical questions related to violence and victimization. The researchers found that 23.9 percent of the study participants had committed a violent act within the previous six months. The majority of those acts – 63.5 percent – were committed in residential settings, not in public. Only 2.6 percent of the violent acts were committed in school or workplace settings.
from above source

www.nami.org...

Most people with mental illness are not violent. In fact, people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence. Research on the relationship between mental illness and violence shows that there are certain factors that may increase risks of violence among a small number of individuals with mental illness. These factors include: Co-occurring abuse of alcohol or illegal drugs Past history of violence Being young and male Untreated psychosis The best way to reduce this risk is through treatment. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and half of children with a diagnosed mental illness receive mental health services in a given year.
if you make it a choice between gun rights or treatment some will choose to own guns for various reasons

another thing is and ive never actually gotten an answer on this from any one here how do you suggest passing laws that only apply to a protected class of individuals? the closest thing that does this is the current way you can be banned for owning a gun if your mentally ill and that is you have to ruled "adjudicated mentally defective" which is a highly stigmatizing term but it is what it is what that means is you have to be a proven risk to your self or others which is how the law has been for decades www.atf.gov... its an 18 page pdf so i cant quote from it

www.nraila.org... this link i can quote from so i will not that any one pays any attention to these posts as all they hear is "omg scary people owning guns omg"

Since 1968, federal law has barred the possession or acquisition of firearms by anyone who “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”[2] The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has issued regulations that define an “adjudication” as a “determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person is, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.” This includes a finding of insanity or incompetency in a criminal case.[3] “Committed to a mental institution” is defined as a “formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, or other lawful authority.” The definition makes clear that “[t]he term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission.” The Supreme Court has held that an involuntary commitment is a serious deprivation of liberty that requires due process of law under the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.[4] A person cannot be federally disqualified from owning a gun based simply on a psychiatrist’s diagnosis, a doctor’s referral, or the opinion of a law enforcement officer, let alone based on getting a drug prescription or seeking mental health treatment. Doing so would actually discourage troubled people from getting the help they need.
and thankfully irrational fears do not let the rights be stripped from individuals just because society wrongly fears what it does not understand

www.theatlantic.com... link from the atlantic

Unfortunately, a consistent and dangerous narrative has emerged—an explanation all-too-readily at hand when a mass shooting or other violent tragedy occurs: The perpetrator must have been mentally ill. “We have a strong responsibility as researchers who study mental illness to try to debunk that myth,” says Jeffrey Swanson, a professor of psychiatry at Duke University. “I say as loudly and as strongly and as frequently as I can, that mental illness is not a very big part of the problem of gun violence in the United States.” The overwhelming majority of people with mental illnesses are not violent, just like the overwhelming majority of all people are not violent. Only 4 percent of the violence—not just gun violence, but any kind—in the United States is attributable to schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or depression (the three most-cited mental illnesses in conjunction with violence). In other words, 96 percent of the violence in America has nothing to do with mental illness.A study from 1998 that followed patients released from psychiatric hospitals found that they were no more prone to violence than other people in their communities—unless they also had a substance abuse problem. So mental illness alone was not a risk factor for violence in this study. Those are the facts. But cultural narratives are often more powerful than facts, and that 4 percent gets overblown in people’s minds.
sorry for the extra long quote i just feel it summs up the issue a bit more clearly then i can on most days ,we are not the cause of the violence but we sure as hell get blamed for it every single time.go look at the texas shooting thread ,count the numbers of times you see "retard" or "crazy" or other stigmatizing terms people who would never use racial slurs (continued next post )



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:57 PM
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Could it be the lack of direction, the feeling of hopelessness many are experiencing? More and more, I see young ones talking about how they can end their lives.. While others are just talking about spending their time in a drug induced state of existence.

There is a level of pain, these days, and I don't think anyone really recognizes it. It's not religion, inanimate objects, or anything else, it's an intangible pain, a systemic issue.

We love things, and use people; instead of loving people, and using things. In fact we spend so much time in our things, we have forgotten people. We throw things away if they break, or even if we just don't want it anymore.

DISPOSABLE SOCIETY has been a on-going issue since the late 70's.

We don't have jobs we can count on for long anymore, no employer/employee loyalty. Our products we buy don't last, our relationships don't have meaning, the things we buy are small doses of happiness that never last. We have no direction, many are hopeless, disillusioned, disconnected.

We have lost our values, meanings, self-worth, and respect for our fellow people. Many end their lives before they really even begin because they feel hopeless. Many see violence as a way to end their pain at the same time they are making a poorly-thought out statement.

There is no hope, and there is no help coming from anyone. This isn't something that can be fixed by a government law, nor is this something any one group can fix. This is a people thing, not based on a single race, color, creed or gender.

People need purpose, and to have respect and appreciation for their fellow man, their neighbored, and colleges. The Vitriol coming from the media needs to stop, it's feeding the flames like jet fuel on a forest fire.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:58 PM
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a reply to: RalagaNarHallas

While you sound passionate enough, sane people don't commit mass murder, crazy people do. An argument can be had for everyone being a little "crazy", but that is another topic. The shooters in all these cases have serious mental issues which allowed them to justify their killing.
edit on 6-11-2017 by network dude because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:04 PM
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continued from last post : people who wouldnt use racial or homophobic or other slurs toss "retard" around like candy and quite honestly it gets irksome always being the boogy man ,we are much more likely to be shot by police then even native Americans or African Americans the latter of which have an entire movement to decry their lives do in fact matter .

www.teenvogue.com...

On Tuesday, police in El Cajon, California, shot and killed 30-year-old Alfred Olango after his sister called 911 for medical assistance because her brother was suffering a seizure. Police say Alfred was acting erratically, but his sister says he was mentally disabled and had just had a seizure. Unarmed and in need of help, Alfred is not alone. As of July, police had killed at least 800 Americans in 2016, many of whom were people of color, disabled, or had a mental health condition according to Thinkprogress.org. These shootings ignited Black Lives Matter protesters across the country and sparked a desperate plea to officers quick to draw a gun. Alfred is not the only disabled person to be killed by police. A report released by the Ruderman Family Foundation says people who are disabled or have mental health conditions make up nearly half of all people killed by police. With the African-American community more likely to experience severe mental illness because of lack of treatment and other barriers, these people are particularly vulnerable to police violence.
perhaps stuff like this is why we too like to be armed to protect our selves from being victims of crimes ,we remember indefinite detentions in "psych wards" where we were forcibly sterilized and tortured for decades

another link from huffington post www.huffingtonpost.com...

On April 29, an unarmed black teenager named Jordan Edwards was shot to death by Texas police officer Roy Oliver. The Balch Springs police officer was responding to neighborhood reports citing “rowdy drinking teenagers,” however, no sign of alcohol or guns were found at the scene of his death. Edwards, only 15 years old and in high school, was leaving a house party when the officer shot him. He died at the hospital. Oliver was fired from the police department after his original report that a car of teenagers aggressively reversed in his direction proved to be false. In response to the public outcry for the officer’s sentencing, Oliver’s family cited his post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, as a contributing factor to his violence (his lawyer has yet to comment on that or multiple reports of previous misconduct). That’s problematic for several reasons. First, it stigmatizes people with PTSD by insinuating that mental illness naturally leads to violence. In fact, the opposite is true. Those with mental illness are 16 times more likely to be victims of police brutality and other acts of violence, according to the Treatment Advocacy Center. Although Edwards did not, roughly 25 percent of victims of police shootings showed signs of a severe mental illness, the Washington Post reported.
note this isnt me saying we want guns to shoot back at cops who wanna shoot us but at the people who would try to victimize and take advantage of our perceived weaknesses

on to americas dark history in treatment of the mentally ill and why we generally dont like to let most people know if we even have an illness often forgoing treatment because of the overwhelming stigma on the matter

the-line-up.com... not the best link so i wont quote it but goes to show that we generally are percived negitively due to the media and movies and whatnot over hte past 50 years

en.wikipedia.org...

The eugenics movement of the early 20th century led to a number of countries enacting laws for the compulsory sterilization of the "feeble minded", which resulted in the forced sterilization of numerous psychiatric inmates.[62] As late as the 1950s, laws in Japan allowed the forcible sterilization of patients with psychiatric illnesses.[63] Under Nazi Germany, the Aktion T4 euthanasia program resulted in the killings of thousands of the mentally ill housed in state institutions. In 1939, the Nazis secretly began to exterminate the mentally ill in a euthanasia campaign. Around 6,000 disabled babies, children and teenagers were murdered by starvation or lethal injection.[64]
its also been used in other countries and the usa as a way to silence political dissent just label them "crazy"and lock them up to discredit them then throw away the key

www.pbs.org... this link covers other groups as well as the mentally ill that were victims of the eugenics movement that went on far to long in this country

According to Andrea Estrada at UC Santa Barbara, forced sterilization was particularly rampant in California (the state’s eugenics program even inspired the Nazis): Beginning in 1909 and continuing for 70 years, California led the country in the number of sterilization procedures performed on men and women, often without their full knowledge and consent. Approximately 20,000 sterilizations took place in state institutions, comprising one-third of the total number performed in the 32 states where such action was legal. (from The UC Santa Barbara Current)
and from the same link

In the early 20th century across the country, medical superintendents, legislators, and social reformers affiliated with an emerging eugenics movement joined forces to put sterilization laws on the books. Such legislation was motivated by crude theories of human heredity that posited the wholesale inheritance of traits associated with a panoply of feared conditions such as criminality, feeblemindedness, and sexual deviance. Many sterilization advocates viewed reproductive surgery as a necessary public health intervention that would protect society from deleterious genes and the social and economic costs of managing ‘degenerate stock’.”
so this is why we fear lists or being part of a modern witch hunt over peoples incorrect assumtions that we are some how more dangerious then the general populace

few more links www.eugenicsarchive.org...

Eugenicists were particularly interested in mental illnesses, although some were known by different names. Notably, "dementia praecox" we now know as schizophrenia and "mongolian idiocy" is Down syndrome. By the turn of the 20th century, people with mental disorders were usually wards of the state, and eugenicists argued that their care was a growing burden on society. Mental patients made good subjects for eugenic study in state institutions, where eugenics case workers could interview them and obtain their family records. Studies at state mental institutions turned up some of the first "evidence" that "social inadequacy" might be in the genes — some institutions housed a number of related inmates. Harry Laughlin used data from state institutions in his first testimony before the House Committee on Immigration, which purported to show that a disproportionate number of immigrants were insane.
they also used it against immigrants to get them out of the way so to speak

that will pretty much end my rant



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:35 PM
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www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov... this study tries to correlate economic status and the rate of mass killings for what its worth

Violent deaths, when combined, were associated with an increase in unemployment and an increase in Gini coefficient, creating a more robust variable. As the effects of macro-level factors (e.g., social and economic policies) on violent death rates in a population are shown to be more significant than those of micro-level influences (e.g., individual characteristics), these associations may be useful to discover. An expansion of socioeconomic variables and the inclusion of other forms of violence in future research could help elucidate long-term trends.
its a long article on the study and people may find it interesting in the over all debate

www.policeone.com... police ones take on the matter for what its worth they include a graph of polled police officers on what they think is the predominate cause of gun crimes ,i my self am not the wisest on these kinds of things but this is there take but like always take it with a grain of salt so to speak

As part of the recently-conducted PoliceOne Gun Control Survey, we asked law enforcement officials what they believed was the biggest cause of gun violence in the U.S. — and unlike some questions that received landslide majority answers, this section brought to light strong opinions of many diverse causes. The majority — which in this case was only 38 percent of the 14,700 officers who answered the survey — blames the decline in parenting and family values. Pop culture, short sentencing, and the ‘other’ options each received upwards of 14 percent of the vote. Those who selected ‘other’ were asked to specify what they believed was the biggest cause of gun violence, and — to no surprise — most believed many factors were equally to blame.


www.nij.gov... governments take on the matter this site may be of use to people trying to figure out the causes and statistics on the matter

www.nij.gov... who has the guns when crimes are committed

NIJ's earliest firearms studies uncovered who owns guns, legally and illegally, and how illegal gun trafficking is tied to juvenile gun violence and other crimes such as drug dealing and gang crime. Highlights of these studies: Many juveniles and young adults can easily obtain guns illegally; most claim to carry them for self-defense. A study of persons arrested for a wide range of crimes showed that a higher percentage of arrestees than regular citizens own firearms. Arrestees are also more likely to be injured or killed by gun violence. Within a community, this amounts to an identifiable group of “career” offenders. Surveys of offenders have found that they prefer newer, high-quality guns and may steal or borrow them; most, however, acquire guns “off the street” through the illicit gun market.
so its a much more complex issue then people like to portray it as

few more usefull links www.nij.gov...

www.nij.gov... more links

and one last one www.nap.edu... note this is a really really long article w many chapters but may be of use to some members here and i would consider it the most comprehenisive source ive found in my many years debating this issue see chapters 4 and 5 especially but for any one wanting to study this issue i reccomend this link



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:38 PM
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Well,...the US has been murdering people for years and years and years. Mental illness can be defined by whatever flavor of the week you want. It's like semantics and double-speak; one person is a murder and another is a hero. It all comes down to this mass-mob-mentality opinion which is as bad as everything else. People haven't changed in thousands of years, so, I don't understand why people get excited and bent out of shape. US gov has been murdering, killing, and everything else forever and a day. Heck, what the US has done through-out it's history makes most serial-killers(murders) look like Saints. At the end of the day, keep your head down, and decide whether this really applies to you or not. Stay out of the eye, Stay away from soft targets, don't look like stupid and stay away from stupid. Don't fool yourself. Stay away from the heard and ignore most of what the heard says. Words to live by.



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