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Mental Illness and Gun Rights

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posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:26 AM
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originally posted by: EternalShadow

originally posted by: Kettu


When people don't feel heard, feel unimportant, forgotten about, mistreated, and powerless -- what else do they have to loose?



Another question would be why do others have to lose their lives just because one feels they have lost or are lost?


The problem I see is the same every time this happens. People try to apply logical thought to an inherently illogical act. We cannot frame it in those constructs. It is a futile attempt. You need to ask why did THIS person do THIS thing. Then, perhaps using other similar events as a set of data points look for some pattern. To date, there is not real pattern of common behavior in these events. That should not be surprising since we are all individuals. We are not all the same little automatons with the same programming.




posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:26 AM
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originally posted by: EternalShadow

originally posted by: Blueracer
Mentally ill people have God given and constitutional rights too. Those that have not committed a crime should not have their rights "taken away".


Ok that's true only case by case you have to admit as far as gun ownership. I think you're broad brushing it to protect a specific right.




What difference do rights make when 99.9% of the population have access to guns, legally or illegally?



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:27 AM
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originally posted by: EternalShadow

originally posted by: Blueracer
Mentally ill people have God given and constitutional rights too. Those that have not committed a crime should not have their rights "taken away".


Ok that's true only case by case you have to admit as far as gun ownership. I think you're broad brushing it to protect a specific right.


The gun control supporters don't "broad brush" this topic to get innocent people's rights "taken away"?



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:32 AM
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a reply to: khnum

It has absolutely nothing to do with being "ok" with casualties, it's that we don't want to become a casualty. The whole idea of banning guns to stop bad people from doing bad things is a farce. Let's take a look at our neighbor Mexico. Guns are extremely hard for private citizens to get, they have a little over 1/3 of our population, yet their murder rate is well past ours.
Why do people get it in in their heads that "If we didn't have guns, we wouldn't have all this violence"?
How about we fix the problems of mental health, poverty, drugs [ how's that little war workin' out hmmm ? ] the homeless and half a dozen others, before we start infringing on the Rights of law abiding citizens to give you the illusion of security.

www.nationmaster.com...

STAT Mexico United States HISTORY
Gun crime > Guns per 100 residents -15 -Ranked 40th.
Intentional homicide rate Ranked 1st. 3 times more than United States 4.7 Ranked 7th.
Murder rate 25,757 Ranked 2nd. 98% more than United States 12,996 Ranked 9th.
Murder rate per million people 218.49 Ranked 17th. 5 times more than United States 42.01 Ranked 43th.
Murders 25,757 Ranked 2nd. 98% more than United States 12,996 Ranked 9th.
Murders per million people 218.49 Ranked 17th. 5 times more than United States 42.01 Ranked 43th.


www.npr.org...

Mexico's government is contesting a new international report that says the country had 23,000 homicides in 2016 — a level surpassed only by Syria. The International Institute for Strategic Studies says that intense violence fueled by Mexico's drug cartels has reached the level of an armed conflict. "The annual survey's lead investigator says Mexico's second-place ranking was surprising, considering the deaths are nearly all attributable to small arms," NPR's Carrie Kahn reports, "and not tanks or aircraft fire as in the political wars of Syria or Iraq."


But they have Cartels and gangs and massive amounts of drug smuggling. Yeah, we don't have those, right?

Stop blaming inanimate objects .[ and law abiding people ]..and start looking at the real problems.
edit on 6-11-2017 by DAVID64 because: I thought "edit" WAS an explanation



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:36 AM
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a reply to: DAVID64

Yeah, but it you have to admit...

If we have to be armed with guns just to go to the grocery store for milk, that says something else is pretty seriously wrong with our country.

I don't want to live in a country where a quick 5 minute trip around the corner to the store necessitates me packing a 9mm.

If that's where we're headed (where everyone should be armed) -- we have a lot bigger problems in this country.

People in other "Westernized" industrial democracies like France, Germany, England, Spain ... they don't feel they all need to be armed to just buy groceries. So it's clearly a uniquely "American" thing.
edit on 6-11-2017 by Kettu because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:39 AM
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a reply to: Kettu

They said that in the 80s.
People don't want to shoot ,only a problem few.
The best hesitate to shoot amongst civilians anyway.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:40 AM
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originally posted by: Kettu
a reply to: DAVID64

Yeah, but it you have to admit...

If we have to be armed with guns just to go to the grocery store for milk, that says something else is pretty seriously wrong with our country.

I don't want to live in a country where a quick 5 minute trip around the corner to the store necessitates me packing a 9mm.

If that's where we're headed (where everyone should be armed) -- we have a lot bigger problems in this country.

People in other "Westernized" industrial democracies like France, Germany, England, Spain ... they don't feel they all need to be armed to just buy groceries. So it's clearly a uniquely "American" thing.






Respect


I had you pegged you as a non thinking antifa type liberal loony ....theres a slap in my face for judgement that was was way off center. My bad.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:43 AM
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a reply to: Kettu




If we have to be armed with guns just to go to the grocery store for milk, that says something else is pretty seriously wrong with our country.


Exactly. Some don't want to look any closer than "Let's ban guns".



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:52 AM
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a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Thanks, I appreciate it.

This is one issue that really gets me worked up. I hate how everyone wants to reduce this issue down to some simple answer, discuss it for a bit and then just forget and move on...only to wash/rinse/repeat in a few weeks or months.

America needs to do some serious soul-searching. It isn't the guns, the pills, the rock music or video games. It isn't one single thing, but a combination of a TON of little things...

It's a bunch of things that we've just sort of let happen to all of us as a society for a long, long time. We're always looking "forward" or "backward" in this country, but never looking at where we are right now. How things are, and if we're truly OK with how things are.

It's always "we should be here!" or "things were better then!" ... but when's the last time we as a nation took a real decent inventory of our current culture? Who "we" are as a nation? What we value? Where we are, have been, and want to go? When's the last time the people of this country really felt like their opinion on those questions mattered?

Ungh. It's depressing and frustrating at the same time. It's not a partisan issue. It's not a race issue. It's not a "gun" issue. It's so, so much more.

I guess the problem is so deep, vast, and wide people don't know where to start and want to just throw a band aid on it.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:54 AM
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Another weak attempt at gun control,if the government had it's way,they would take all of the guns and we would be a communist country ,some never learn from the past,some young ones never learn at all,no on gun control,fools never think of outcome



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:59 AM
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originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: Kettu




If we have to be armed with guns just to go to the grocery store for milk, that says something else is pretty seriously wrong with our country.


Exactly. Some don't want to look any closer than "Let's ban guns".


Yeah, I know...this is where I am at odds with a lot of liberal people I know. Banning guns is like chopping off an entire arm because you have an ingrown fingernail. It's an extreme reaction to something that doesn't effect the rest of the arm. Address the core problem (the finger itself) and you don't have to take more drastic measures that likely will result in more problems.

Seriously, "banning guns" or whatever would cause more problems than it would solve...because the issue isn't the guns.

I mean, sure guns make large body counts bigger...but let's say there were no guns. I'm fully confident we'd see the same people just using machete's or something else. The violence is a symptom of something else, something we as a nation don't seem ready to stomach and deal with head-on.

It's like we need to have a sit-down with the entire nation and redefine ourselves and who we are. IDK about anyone else, but America seems kind of directionless lately. We're not leading the world in really anything besides consuming useless and soon-to-be-obsolete junk made in China.

And I think we all know deep down that right there isn't really something to be super proud of.

Good lord, can't America pioneer asteroid mining or something and get America back to the forefront of something massive, big, and world-changing?

Now I'm just rambling.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:04 AM
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a reply to: Kettu

It's a tough situation, the gap between rich and poor is ever growing, people in general are becoming disillusioned, this is a world wide issue not strictly American, it's just that in America there are stupid amounts of guns floating around and guns make killing easy. That is a reality that cannot be escaped.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:08 AM
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a reply to: EternalShadow

Depends on the mental illness. If the person committed self harm or committed violence against another person, then yes, his/her right to own firearms should be revoked.
edit on 11/6/2017 by starwarsisreal because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:15 AM
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Kettu is right, there is no simple answer to this problem.

it has multiple layers in it all requiring different levels of intervention yet if we go to congress what we will get is an invasive one size fits all answer that does little to address the problem but takes more from the rights of the citizens while expanding federal power.

I wish I had an answer, but I do not once again we have a minority of the population causing problems with ineffective political leadership leaving us to choose between doing nothing and accepting the deaths, or letting them do something and strip more rights from the people.




posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:15 AM
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a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Yes.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:17 AM
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a reply to: Irishhaf

We have to legally define sanity on a national basis,that properly describes dementia.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:33 AM
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originally posted by: khnum
we couldn't discuss this after
..Orlando
..Virginia Tech
..Aurora
..Sandy Hook and countless others...because it wasn't the time,it wasn't appropriate

Many posters here are perfectly happy with any number of casualties so long as they can keep their guns so any musings here are purely academic as there is no will to address this issue.


That's BS and you know it.

And what will be accomplished here, that failed with the War on Drugs?



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 03:26 AM
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a reply to: EternalShadow

Arm the insane!

In Arm-urrica it's enshrined in law!




posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 03:56 AM
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Gun violence and mental health do not go hand in hand.

Claiming that they do only does two things, firstly it ignores the real cause of gun violence and secondly it adds to the stigma of mental health.

In the UK 1 in 4 people will experience a mental illness at some point in their life and our provision of mental health care is very poor right now. We treat individuals with mental illness with the same medication and many of the same therapies. However we do not have mass shootings every day and this is the same in the rest of Europe and the English speaking word.

So to claim that its mental illness and psychiatric pharmaceuticals that are creating this problem of daily mass shootings then cannot be true otherwise it would be replicated in other parts of the world.

The other major problem with this line of thinking is how it adds to the already debilitating stigma of mental illness.

So for all of those reasons I believe trying to pin mass shootings on mental illness is wrong.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 04:44 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Gun violence and mental health do not go hand in hand.

Claiming that they do only does two things, firstly it ignores the real cause of gun violence and secondly it adds to the stigma of mental health.

In the UK 1 in 4 people will experience a mental illness at some point in their life and our provision of mental health care is very poor right now. We treat individuals with mental illness with the same medication and many of the same therapies. However we do not have mass shootings every day and this is the same in the rest of Europe and the English speaking word.

So to claim that its mental illness and psychiatric pharmaceuticals that are creating this problem of daily mass shootings then cannot be true otherwise it would be replicated in other parts of the world.

The other major problem with this line of thinking is how it adds to the already debilitating stigma of mental illness.

So for all of those reasons I believe trying to pin mass shootings on mental illness is wrong.


I can respect your point, but did you read the math section of the OP? Surely even a little less than 800,000 adults running around with pharmaceutical induced suicidal thoughts at any given time is troubling to say the least.

I'm not however trivializing the root problems, so no need to go there.

However, by saying gun violence and mental health don't go hand in hand is idiotic. Essentially, by that logic, every gun murder is carried out by people in their right mind. I'm sorry, you don't arbitrarily kill people without something being severely wrong upstairs.

Kettu, and several others made some very thought provoking comments on both threads. Which was what I was hoping for. Glad the mods decided to keep both threads.

Thanks for sharing, everyone.

edit on E30America/ChicagoMon, 06 Nov 2017 05:06:40 -060011amMondayth05am by EternalShadow because: add/correction




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