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Texas Church Shooting : Thread

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posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:57 PM
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The fact that he has a conviction for domestic violence should have been immediate grounds for denial. It's even on the 4473 you have to fill out in order to get the gun.


I think most are saying his specific charge was ASSAULT...which is different in how it relates to this.




posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:59 PM
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originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: roadgravel
The news stated the Air Force said the information on the shooter was entered into the check system.


Right.
The shooter checked a box indicating he had never been convicted of a disqualifying crime.

What happened then?




Background Checks in Texas

Last updated November 3, 2017.




See our Background Checks policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

Federal law requires federally licensed firearms dealers (but not private sellers) to initiate a background check on the purchaser prior to sale of a firearm.

Federal law provides states with the option of serving as a state “point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using state, as well as federal, records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) database. (Note that state files are not always included in the federal database.)

Texas is not a point of contact state for the NICS.
Texas has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate background checks prior to transferring a firearm.
As a result, in Texas, firearms dealers must initiate the background check required by federal law by contacting the FBI directly.1

Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions.

As a result, handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun.2 (Note, however, that people who have become prohibited from possessing firearms may continue to hold state firearms licenses if the state fails to remove these licenses in a timely fashion.)

lawcenter.giffords.org...



The GIffords Law Center fooled you good. It states in there he doens't have to go through a background check if he holds a firearms license. He attempted to get one, and didn't get it. He did go through a background check, sorry to inform you.


Let's simplify this.
He walked into a sporting goods store and walked out with an AR-556. He also had a glock and second gun in the car.
How as he able to purchase those weapons if he was denied a license?


Yeah let's simplified this because you tried to insinuate he dodged the background check system and you were wrong. He bought them from a licensed gun store, meaning he was legally required to undergo a background check since he didn't hold a firearms license (which, to get, you have to go through a background check). The problem is, the background check system failed.


So your claim is that he underwent a background check? But the background check "system" failed?

Please support that claim with clear evidence.
And then please explain specifically what portion of the "system" failed and how?

You also claimed he was "Denied a license"? When and where and by whom?


I went to buy a semi-auto pistol in Texas and I had to undergo a FBI check and wait until I got that before I could buy it, and, to leave the store. That was just a few short years ago, I had assumed that I had a 3-day waiting period, but I was told that is no longer required, which was fine by me, me, who was doing this legally. That is just to BUY a pistol, not carry it. If you are in your vehicle or at home you are allowed to have one in your possession. (Castle Law)

After I got that pistol (I already had other revolver pistols and rifles) I decided that it was time to get my CCW so I could carry legally. To do that I had to get fingerprinted, get my picture taken, show my driver's license, pay a fee to the state of Texas, and a couple of other things I can't remember. One of the main things was that I needed to do was to take my written and field test to get qualified, it's a long process to get permission by the State of Texas.
The test was not hard, but you couldn't be a dummy either, it's really a lot like a drivers test in a way.

Anyway, my point is that you are vetted by the FBI TWICE that I am aware of, and if the people on the other end don't do their job then that is a whole 'nother problem.

I will say that once I traded a Dan Wesson .357 Magnum for a (fairly expensive) bicycle, he took my drivers license info and I took his to cover our butts. It can be done that way, but it doesn't appear (at least now) that it was.]
edit on 6-11-2017 by recrisp because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 01:59 PM
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originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: soberbacchus

The echo trigger was recently stamped out by the ATF. It worked by firing once per pull and once per let-off. That modification removed user action from the firing mechanism and it was no longer semi auto which is why the ATF banned it.


It looks to still be for sale on multiple sites and I can find no news of the ATF banning it?


Sorry. The ATF banned their original design which worked on a sear trip system.

They changed the system to a lock trip system that requires the user to push the trigger forward.

Didn't know about the new design.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:00 PM
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originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: recrisp

Because no ex-post-facto law shall be made. That includes ATF regulations for the conditions set for certain items.

The "grandfather clause" as it were.

Ohhhh, O.K., thanks, I wondered. =)



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:01 PM
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Agreed. So where did the background check fail?


Impossible to determine without the forms he filled out, and the resulting reports from every step of the process.
Without this, it's just guesswork, and I imagine every Tom, Dick, and Harry does NOT have such access, so why argue about it?



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:02 PM
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Looks like the POS liked little girls after all.


Texas church shooter tried to bribe underage girls to date him

nypost.com...



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:06 PM
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originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: roadgravel
The news stated the Air Force said the information on the shooter was entered into the check system.


Right.
The shooter checked a box indicating he had never been convicted of a disqualifying crime.

What happened then?




Background Checks in Texas

Last updated November 3, 2017.




See our Background Checks policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

Federal law requires federally licensed firearms dealers (but not private sellers) to initiate a background check on the purchaser prior to sale of a firearm.

Federal law provides states with the option of serving as a state “point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using state, as well as federal, records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) database. (Note that state files are not always included in the federal database.)

Texas is not a point of contact state for the NICS.
Texas has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate background checks prior to transferring a firearm.
As a result, in Texas, firearms dealers must initiate the background check required by federal law by contacting the FBI directly.1

Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions.

As a result, handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun.2 (Note, however, that people who have become prohibited from possessing firearms may continue to hold state firearms licenses if the state fails to remove these licenses in a timely fashion.)

lawcenter.giffords.org...



The GIffords Law Center fooled you good. It states in there he doens't have to go through a background check if he holds a firearms license. He attempted to get one, and didn't get it. He did go through a background check, sorry to inform you.


Let's simplify this.
He walked into a sporting goods store and walked out with an AR-556. He also had a glock and second gun in the car.
How as he able to purchase those weapons if he was denied a license?


Yeah let's simplified this because you tried to insinuate he dodged the background check system and you were wrong. He bought them from a licensed gun store, meaning he was legally required to undergo a background check since he didn't hold a firearms license (which, to get, you have to go through a background check). The problem is, the background check system failed.


So your claim is that he underwent a background check? But the background check "system" failed?

Please support that claim with clear evidence.
And then please explain specifically what portion of the "system" failed and how?

You also claimed he was "Denied a license"? When and where and by whom?



Texas church shooter was denied a license to carry firearms

The same things that flagged him so that he was turned down for that license should have flagged him to be declined to purchase the firearms. Obviously that wasn't the case, since the store he bought them from is required to do background checks by federal law and he passed the background check. There had to be some disconnect how the disqualifying information didn't make it into that system. That's what we need to investigate and find out, and fix.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:10 PM
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originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: soberbacchus

The fact that he has a conviction for domestic violence should have been immediate grounds for denial. It's even on the 4473 you have to fill out in order to get the gun.



Agreed. So where did the background check fail?
I believe his domestic battery charge was military and hand in hand with his dishonorable discharge:


CBS News reported that the suspect is former “US Air Force E1 (2010-2014). He received a dishonorable discharge. He was court martialed in May 2014.” The network also wrote, “Kelley is a former U.S. Air Force member who served from 2010 to 2014. He was dishonorably discharged and court martialed in May 2014.” However, other reports indicate the end result was a bad conduct discharge. According to Daily Beast, “Kelley was court martialed in November 2012 and a judge sentenced him with a bad-conduct discharge, 12 months confinement, and two reductions in rank to basic airman, according to an appeals court decision in 2013 that affirmed the decision against Kelley.”

Heavy has confirmed that a petition for review of Kelley’s appeal was denied in March 2014. The case is listed as No. 14-0387/AF. U.S. v. Devin P. KELLEY. CCA 38267. The National Correspondent for the Los Angeles Times wrote on Twitter that the court martial was because Kelley assaulted his wife and child.

heavy.com...

So these would have been federal records?
NICS

He had bought 3 guns that we know of since those charges.

As I understand it, firearms dealers in Texas are not required to check NICS?
If they are, did this sporting goods store?
If it did, was his court marshal conviction in the DB?





You understand it wrong. Firearms dealers in Texas are required by federal law to check NICS if you buy a gun from them. The exception is if you hold a license to carry issued by Texas, which this shooter did not. And the reason for the exception is because you have to go through a background check to get the license, making another background check when you buy the gun redundant. You have to renew the license every few years, so you have to go through repeated background checks just to maintain the license.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:10 PM
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originally posted by: Gazrok

The fact that he has a conviction for domestic violence should have been immediate grounds for denial. It's even on the 4473 you have to fill out in order to get the gun.


I think most are saying his specific charge was ASSAULT...which is different in how it relates to this.


That might be the rub. It was a court marshal for assault on his wife and child. The conviction was apparently "Bad Conduct" which sounds diluted in language and likely would not flag anything on the Federal DB NICS.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:11 PM
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Not bad for a security guard!

nypost.com...
Kelley and his wife also liked to tool around in a new red Corvette — even using it to drive to the end of their county road to pick up the mail.

I'll bet he made his money playing video poker in Las .... ah NEVER MIND!
edit on 6-11-2017 by starviego because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:12 PM
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a reply to: face23785

The problem is that when it comes to this you do have some who actually care about the mentally ill which is all this kind of issue should be about. Then you have far more who see it as an opportunity to work in backdoor gun control by making the criteria fast and loose enough that just about anyone they want can be defined as "mentally ill" and therefore unfit.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:15 PM
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originally posted by: SunnyDee
this video blogger found the shooters colorado voter registration. says he was registered UAF, United against Fascism.

m.youtube.com...


my bad, UAF means UnAffiliated.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:15 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: face23785

The problem is that when it comes to this you do have some who actually care about the mentally ill which is all this kind of issue should be about. Then you have far more who see it as an opportunity to work in backdoor gun control by making the criteria fast and loose enough that just about anyone they want can be defined as "mentally ill" and therefore unfit.


Totally agree. They try to take advantage of every situation. And they wonder why we won't give an inch. Look at California if you "compromise" with them.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: starlitestarbright

You think so do you?

The forefathers fought to have access to exactly the same kinds of munitions the British army had. So if the British army was walking around packing so-called assault weapons and all those things you list, do you honestly think the forefathers who were fed up enough to fight them for liberty were going to pass laws to limit access to them?



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:17 PM
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a reply to: face23785

We will see what the investigation reveals, but I suspect it is this:

1) His conviction for assaulting his wife and child was a military court marshal that was legally recorded as "Bad Conduct"
2) If the federal DB NICS includes military court marshal records, then "Bad Conduct" was insufficient to warrant denial.
- If NICS does not include Military Court Marshal convictions, then that needs to be fixed.
- If it does then the legal language needs to be straightened out for domestic checks.
3) The Sporting Goods store ran the check on NICS, NICS didn't consider "Bad Conduct" a flag and he was sold the guns.
- If the Sporting Goods store didn't run the NICS check, they need to held accountable.
- If NICS knew he had a domestic assault conviction via military, but failed to bounce it, they need to be held accountable.

Any which way..Guys that beat their wife and kids should not be able to buy guns.

That should be something that get's fixed.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: soberbacchus




Any which way..Guys that beat their wife and kids should not be able to buy guns. That should be something that get's fixed.


I think you did a pretty good job of illustrating what could be the cause of him getting a gun.

This guy slipped through the cracks somehow and I sure as hell would like to know why.



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: face23785

This is what needs reconciling


In April 2016, Kelley purchased the Ruger AR-556 rifle he allegedly used in the shooting from a store in San Antonio, Texas, a law enforcement official said. There was no disqualifying information in the background check conducted as required for the purchase, a law enforcement official told CNN.

At one point, the shooter tried to get a license to carry a gun in Texas but was denied by the state, Abbott said, citing the director of Texas' Department of Public Safety.




"So how was it that he was able to get a gun? By all the facts that we seem to know, he was not supposed to have access to a gun," Abbott said. "So how did this happen?"

From your link



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:28 PM
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originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: starlitestarbright

Question for you...

What do you think the "AR" stands for in the Ruger model AR-556, or the more generic reference of "AR-15"???

Hmmmmm?





"AR" = ArmaLite Rifle



posted on Nov, 6 2017 @ 02:28 PM
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a reply to: fleabit


Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
--John Adams

I think they'd likely be rolling over in their graves and saying many of the same things I do. The guns aren't the problem. The people are.


(post by malikdholmes removed for a serious terms and conditions violation)

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