Texas Church Shooting : Thread

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: soberbacchus

I think it’s funny that you’re telling me to do my research.

There are no after market trigger mods to simulate full auto fire. None. Only ONE has been submitted to the ATF for review and the ATF said F No!

Will PM you links.

a reply to: soberbacchus

Please do

a reply to: soberbacchus

If the founding fathers were around they would do the same thing they did then to employ the most powerful weapons and encourage people to utilize the most powerful and practical forms of defense at home as well, that means fully automatic weapons and suppressors.

Any other claim is moronic

originally posted by: firerescue
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

The exact notations in his record are not clear at the moment. The Domestic Violence conviction should have disqualified him (absolutely, under current laws), but I'm not sure we know if those charges carry across exactly that way from a military conviction and imprisonment. They should, but we don't know exactly what the record shows (at least I don't).

From reports I'd seen was charged with "ASSUALT" , not Domestic Violence in his court - martial

Was sentenced to year in jail - which equates to misdemeanor

looks like may have slipped through cracks

By being charged with Assault vs Domestic violence was able to avoid being banned

Assault was the crime. DV is not a separate crime. It is an enhancement on other crimes.

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: Tekaran

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: ZombieWoof
a reply to: ZombieWoof

one more

Why is that legal?

Because it is a single shot (semi-auto), unless illegally modified.

The shooting lasted for an estimated 15 seconds according to witnesses.
He managed to kill at least 26 people and injure at least 20 others in those 15 seconds with the youngest victim being 18 months old.

This 15 seconds thing is being gobbled up by the anti-gun crowd. It's not accurate. One witness said it happened so fast it seemed like only 15 seconds. She didn't use a stopwatch. Other witnesses and law enforcement have detailed that it went on for a significant period of time. Please stop using this number to justify your rhetoric, it's wrong.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: soberbacchus

I think it’s funny that you’re telling me to do my research.

There are no after market trigger mods to simulate full auto fire. None.

First off, to keep you honest? I posted

There are multiple trigger systems/modifications available that are legal to buy that can convert the AR-556 to being "virtually" fully-automatic.

I will not post how-to video's on modifications that are widely available, but as far as legal after-market trigger systems capable of making an AR rifle "Virtually" fully-auto?

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: roadgravel
The news stated the Air Force said the information on the shooter was entered into the check system.

Right.
The shooter checked a box indicating he had never been convicted of a disqualifying crime.

What happened then?

Background Checks in Texas

Last updated November 3, 2017.




See our Background Checks policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

Federal law requires federally licensed firearms dealers (but not private sellers) to initiate a background check on the purchaser prior to sale of a firearm.

Federal law provides states with the option of serving as a state “point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using state, as well as federal, records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) database. (Note that state files are not always included in the federal database.)

Texas is not a point of contact state for the NICS.
Texas has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate background checks prior to transferring a firearm.
As a result, in Texas, firearms dealers must initiate the background check required by federal law by contacting the FBI directly.1

Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions.

As a result, handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun.2 (Note, however, that people who have become prohibited from possessing firearms may continue to hold state firearms licenses if the state fails to remove these licenses in a timely fashion.)

lawcenter.giffords.org...

The GIffords Law Center fooled you good. It states in there he doens't have to go through a background check if he holds a firearms license. He attempted to get one, and didn't get it. He did go through a background check, sorry to inform you.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: roadgravel
The news stated the Air Force said the information on the shooter was entered into the check system.

Right.
The shooter checked a box indicating he had never been convicted of a disqualifying crime.

What happened then?

Background Checks in Texas

Last updated November 3, 2017.




See our Background Checks policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

Federal law requires federally licensed firearms dealers (but not private sellers) to initiate a background check on the purchaser prior to sale of a firearm.

Federal law provides states with the option of serving as a state “point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using state, as well as federal, records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) database. (Note that state files are not always included in the federal database.)

Texas is not a point of contact state for the NICS.
Texas has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate background checks prior to transferring a firearm.
As a result, in Texas, firearms dealers must initiate the background check required by federal law by contacting the FBI directly.1

Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions.

As a result, handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun.2 (Note, however, that people who have become prohibited from possessing firearms may continue to hold state firearms licenses if the state fails to remove these licenses in a timely fashion.)

lawcenter.giffords.org...

The GIffords Law Center fooled you good. It states in there he doens't have to go through a background check if he holds a firearms license. He attempted to get one, and didn't get it. He did go through a background check, sorry to inform you.

Let's simplify this.
He walked into a sporting goods store and walked out with an AR-556. He also had a glock and second gun in the car.
How as he able to purchase those weapons if he was denied a license?

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: soberbacchus

I think it’s funny that you’re telling me to do my research.

There are no after market trigger mods to simulate full auto fire. None.

First off, to keep you honest? I posted

There are multiple trigger systems/modifications available that are legal to buy that can convert the AR-556 to being "virtually" fully-automatic.

I will not post how-to video's on modifications that are widely available, but as far as legal after-market trigger systems capable of making an AR rifle "Virtually" fully-auto?

Mods like that take practice to shoot accurately too. I hate to break it to you but you can shoot an unmodified AR "virtually" just as fast with practice.

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: roadgravel
The news stated the Air Force said the information on the shooter was entered into the check system.

Right.
The shooter checked a box indicating he had never been convicted of a disqualifying crime.

What happened then?

Background Checks in Texas

Last updated November 3, 2017.




See our Background Checks policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

Federal law requires federally licensed firearms dealers (but not private sellers) to initiate a background check on the purchaser prior to sale of a firearm.

Federal law provides states with the option of serving as a state “point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using state, as well as federal, records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) database. (Note that state files are not always included in the federal database.)

Texas is not a point of contact state for the NICS.
Texas has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate background checks prior to transferring a firearm.
As a result, in Texas, firearms dealers must initiate the background check required by federal law by contacting the FBI directly.1

Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions.

As a result, handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun.2 (Note, however, that people who have become prohibited from possessing firearms may continue to hold state firearms licenses if the state fails to remove these licenses in a timely fashion.)

lawcenter.giffords.org...

The GIffords Law Center fooled you good. It states in there he doens't have to go through a background check if he holds a firearms license. He attempted to get one, and didn't get it. He did go through a background check, sorry to inform you.

Let's simplify this.
He walked into a sporting goods store and walked out with an AR-556. He also had a glock and second gun in the car.
How as he able to purchase those weapons if he was denied a license?

Yeah let's simplified this because you tried to insinuate he dodged the background check system and you were wrong. He bought them from a licensed gun store, meaning he was legally required to undergo a background check since he didn't hold a firearms license (which, to get, you have to go through a background check). The problem is, the background check system failed.

a reply to: soberbacchus

The echo trigger was recently stamped out by the ATF. It worked by firing once per pull and once per let-off. That modification removed user action from the firing mechanism and it was no longer semi auto which is why the ATF banned it.

The one you PMd me about is a trigger manufactured with an extremely short reset. It does not simulate auto fire at all. Trigger reset does affect rate of fire, but since it is still a semi-auto trigger it can only fire as fast as the shooter can pull the trigger.

I stand behind my statement. The details matter here.

The Echo trigger is the design submitted to the ATF that was denied based on illegal modification laws that I mentioned earlier.

Don't try too hard to "keep me honest". It is my job to know these things.

originally posted by: circuitsports
a reply to: soberbacchus

If the founding fathers were around they would do the same thing they did then to employ the most powerful weapons and encourage people to utilize the most powerful and practical forms of defense at home as well, that means fully automatic weapons and suppressors.

Any other claim is moronic

So even though it's been literally hundreds of years since the inception of the 2nd amendment, you don't think any revision is necessary? And you think the founding fathers if they were around today, with the massively larger population, and the increased shootings in schools and public places, that wouldn't sway their thinking at all?

I think they'd take it under consideration.

I think it's ridiculous that some think that the "fix" is to make sure every person is toting powerful firearms wherever they go. So you can expect everyone to have guns in malls, churches, schools, etc.. in an effort to try and stop the few diseased psychos that commit these shootings. Not that civilians carrying firearms have stopped ANY of the mass shootings in the past. Not even in Texas - where the guy who did have a weapon and used it, couldn't stop the shooter from shooting almost every single person in the church first.

Why some people think there are no actual crazy or wicked people out there boggles the mind. Apparently every terrorist attack, every crazy with a gun, every hate crime is a false flag with a sinister agenda - at least according to some people.

I have a problem agreeing that two people in different states just go crazy on the same day (or within one day) and decide to be mass shooters. The odds are astronomically against this...yet this happened both during the Orlando Pulse shooting (a guy arrested in CA the same day), and in the Vegas shooting (guy arrested in TN the following day). In both of these cases, these others were stopped before they could do their deeds....but had a car full of weapons.

Likewise, I have a problem thinking that someone decides to go on a rampage so soon after two other mass shootings, within a couple of weeks. Again, the odds are just against it.

So, either conspiracy, or coincidence after coincidence, after coincidence. At some point, even you will have to see that this is a little beyond just random crazy people....

And not every one is a false flag. I don't think the Walmart shooter was a false flag. The details just don't support it. But Pulse and Vegas? Absolutely. This church one? So far, ticking off all of the boxes for a Manchurian Candidate here.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: roadgravel
The news stated the Air Force said the information on the shooter was entered into the check system.

Right.
The shooter checked a box indicating he had never been convicted of a disqualifying crime.

What happened then?

Background Checks in Texas

Last updated November 3, 2017.




See our Background Checks policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

Federal law requires federally licensed firearms dealers (but not private sellers) to initiate a background check on the purchaser prior to sale of a firearm.

Federal law provides states with the option of serving as a state “point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using state, as well as federal, records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) database. (Note that state files are not always included in the federal database.)

Texas is not a point of contact state for the NICS.
Texas has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate background checks prior to transferring a firearm.
As a result, in Texas, firearms dealers must initiate the background check required by federal law by contacting the FBI directly.1

Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions.

As a result, handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun.2 (Note, however, that people who have become prohibited from possessing firearms may continue to hold state firearms licenses if the state fails to remove these licenses in a timely fashion.)

lawcenter.giffords.org...

The GIffords Law Center fooled you good. It states in there he doens't have to go through a background check if he holds a firearms license. He attempted to get one, and didn't get it. He did go through a background check, sorry to inform you.

Let's simplify this.
He walked into a sporting goods store and walked out with an AR-556. He also had a glock and second gun in the car.
How as he able to purchase those weapons if he was denied a license?

Yeah let's simplified this because you tried to insinuate he dodged the background check system and you were wrong. He bought them from a licensed gun store, meaning he was legally required to undergo a background check since he didn't hold a firearms license (which, to get, you have to go through a background check). The problem is, the background check system failed.

So your claim is that he underwent a background check? But the background check "system" failed?

Please support that claim with clear evidence.
And then please explain specifically what portion of the "system" failed and how?

You also claimed he was "Denied a license"? When and where and by whom?

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: soberbacchus

The echo trigger was recently stamped out by the ATF. It worked by firing once per pull and once per let-off. That modification removed user action from the firing mechanism and it was no longer semi auto which is why the ATF banned it.

The one you PMd me about is a trigger manufactured with an extremely short reset. It does not simulate auto fire at all. Trigger reset does affect rate of fire, but since it is still a semi-auto trigger it can only fire as fast as the shooter can pull the trigger.

I stand behind my statement. The details matter here.

The Echo trigger is the design submitted to the ATF that was denied based on illegal modification laws that I mentioned earlier.

Don't try too hard to "keep me honest". It is my job to know these things.

I'm not arguing at all, BUT, if they are illegal now, can you tell us why they are still selling them?
Believe me, I am on the same side, but it appears that they still sell them.
I know, it's a crazy world.
Thanks!

a reply to: recrisp

Because no ex-post-facto law shall be made. That includes ATF regulations for the conditions set for certain items.

The "grandfather clause" as it were.

As for those bitching about magazine sizes, guns for hunting, etc.

Look, the second amendment isn't about hunting. It's about an armed populace being a free populace. The founding fathers understood this. Yes, in their day, weapons were more primitive, but the SPIRIT of the freedom is such that a citizen should be permitted to be armed to protect themselves. (even from their own government, as it is spelled out implicitly)

Do I think every nut and whacko should be able to get a gun? No....didn't say that. BUT, there should be a LOT of hoops one has to jump through before one can diminish one's CONSTITUTIONAL rights. It should not be easy to deny any of the Bill of Rights protections, to a citizen.

But, this is all a moot point, because by this time next year, guns will be all but banned, if not completely banned by then. Even without HRC in the White House.

a reply to: soberbacchus

The fact that he has a conviction for domestic violence should have been immediate grounds for denial. It's even on the 4473 you have to fill out in order to get the gun.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: soberbacchus

The echo trigger was recently stamped out by the ATF. It worked by firing once per pull and once per let-off. That modification removed user action from the firing mechanism and it was no longer semi auto which is why the ATF banned it.

It looks to still be for sale on multiple sites and I can find no news of the ATF banning it?

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: soberbacchus

The fact that he has a conviction for domestic violence should have been immediate grounds for denial. It's even on the 4473 you have to fill out in order to get the gun.

Agreed. So where did the background check fail?
I believe his domestic battery charge was military and hand in hand with his dishonorable discharge:

CBS News reported that the suspect is former “US Air Force E1 (2010-2014). He received a dishonorable discharge. He was court martialed in May 2014.” The network also wrote, “Kelley is a former U.S. Air Force member who served from 2010 to 2014. He was dishonorably discharged and court martialed in May 2014.” However, other reports indicate the end result was a bad conduct discharge. According to Daily Beast, “Kelley was court martialed in November 2012 and a judge sentenced him with a bad-conduct discharge, 12 months confinement, and two reductions in rank to basic airman, according to an appeals court decision in 2013 that affirmed the decision against Kelley.”

Heavy has confirmed that a petition for review of Kelley’s appeal was denied in March 2014. The case is listed as No. 14-0387/AF. U.S. v. Devin P. KELLEY. CCA 38267. The National Correspondent for the Los Angeles Times wrote on Twitter that the court martial was because Kelley assaulted his wife and child.

heavy.com...

So these would have been federal records?
NICS

He had bought 3 guns that we know of since those charges.

As I understand it, firearms dealers in Texas are not required to check NICS?
If they are, did this sporting goods store?
If it did, was his court marshal conviction in the DB?