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Strange Revelations verse?

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posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

Contrary to popular modern acceptance, the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse are not minions of the 'anti-christ' but rather are the manifestation of God's work in the world toward gathering His people. I can explain more about that later, but for right now I can point out some things about the third seal's horseman, riding on a black horse and carrying a pair of balances.



What's your opinion regarding the Man on the White horse ?

By the way that was the best explanation of the Black Horse I've ever come across. You said, contrary to popular... So did you come up with that yourself ? If you did, nice work.


[edit on 21-7-2005 by joyouslyhumored]




posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 04:45 AM
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6.5-6. And when He had opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: Come up and see. And I beheld, and lo! a black horse. And he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures say: A measure of wheat for a denarius, and three measures of barley for a denarius; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.



The black colour of the horse symbolises "lamentation over those who have fallen away from the faith in Christ by reason of the difficulty of the torments" (St. Andrew of Caesarea).



According to St. Victorinus of Petau, however, the black horse signifies famine[139]; for the weighing out of foodstuffs indicates their scarcity, as it is written: When I afflict you with famine of bread, then ten women shall bake your loaves in one oven, and they shall render your loaves by weight; and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied (Leviticus 26.26).


The Explanations above are those of early Church Fathers....so interpreting Revelation and the Scriptures remain the same as they were and still are....
eg...... St Andrew of Caesarea (5th c.) presented in "The Apocalypse in the Teachings of Ancient Christianity" by Abp Averky Taushev & Fr Seraphim Rose.

And also the Early teachings of Revelation here....
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also interesting reading in a'' blog''.......
Pale Horse or Black horse?......
raphael.doxos.com...

IX
helen

Hope that helps.

[edit on 7/21/2005 by helen670]



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 04:48 AM
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Im not far from the mark you guys have already made.

The white horse is the ac.
He rides with a bow. In Genesis we see God use the bow in the sky as a symbol of a type of peace

The ac will come and 'confirm' a covenant with many (peace in the mideast) for a week.

Jesus told us..when they say peace and safety, then will come sudden distruction.

War, famine, and death follow. I believe the verse in topic is speaking of famine and possibly this is the setup for the mark of the beast.

The OT usually has an example of things in the NT. I will keep this in mind when reading



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 05:32 AM
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Originally posted by joyouslyhumored

By the way that was the best explanation of the Black Horse I've ever come across. You said, contrary to popular... So did you come up with that yourself ? If you did, nice work.


[edit on 21-7-2005 by joyouslyhumored]
I wish I could say that I did--but to be honest, on my own, I stumbled and fell. Hard. Thank God for God--who provides both comfort and a clear light for the path.

So my answer is, no, I didn't come up with this myself--but neither did I get it by suggestion of another person. I follow the basic rule of Psalms 118:8 and that's the source of my information.


It's rare I get a favorable response, though--thank you sincerely for the boost!



What's your opinion regarding the Man on the White horse ?


And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
(Revelation 6:2)

White is always a symbol of purity--being without sin. This right away negates the idea that this is 'the anti-christ.' If Christ was without sin--then His opposition cannot be represented as sinless, as well. God, the Father (the Ancient of Days) as well as Christ, King of Kings, are both depicted more than once as having hair as 'white as snow' or 'white like wool', and the brilliance of their light must surely be so bright that is blindingly white. (Daniel 7:9, Matthew 17:2) White also often signifies 'victory' and is the color which the priestly class wear to serve GOD (linen ephod--which was often worn by King David who was thr adow of Christ as priest/king)

Satan, as the covering Cherub and most beautiful of all created beings--still is not so brilliant he blinds with whiteness. His beauty is part of his enchantment to mortals, and so by default we must assume that his light is reflected luminescence rather than a glorious illumination that precludes being able to behold him. (Ezekial chapter 28)

Also, it is often said that the crown upon the white horseman's head is indicative somehow of the permission given by God to bring the 'strong delusion' which Paul mentions in 2 Thessalonians. This is not a solid argument, either--because although the prince of the world is allowed a time to reign, no where is it mentioned that he will be given any sort of crown.
The seven-headed, 10 horned beast has 10 crowns with blasphemous names, but this beast is not Satan--he is the dragon, of course. This beast is of human origin, not spiritual.
Also--the 24 elders are all wearing crowns--so we cannot assume that anyone wearing a crown other than Christ must be an imposter and therefore a worldly minion. We are all promised a crown, as well--all overcomers wear a crown. This crown is a 'stephanos' which is both symbolic of victors and royalty.

The next accepted misconception is that since this rider has a bow, and not a sword, that it is another indication of an imposter of Christ. The reason behind this is most often stated in regard to the greek definition of the word used for bow in this verse, which is 'toxon.' This word does not mean 'a cheap imitation' bow as is purported, but rather it means a bow in the sense of 'the simplest fabrication thereof'. Being simple is not at all the same thing as being cheap and false. The root word that 'toxon' is taken from is 'tikto', which is described in Strong's as being:
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.

The idea of 'seeds' and 'being in travail' are certain clues of reference to Israel as an instrument of God's victory in the world.

This bow is actually the 'weapon' that lays the groundwork for the battle to be fought later on with the 'sword of His mouth'--the 'early rain' of Israel, the generation of the children of Israel which He freed from captivity in Egypt as The Lord of Hosts--and the 'arrows' sent out with that bow are the seeds of truth planted in those days. Those days were the shadow and pattern for the true liberation which occured in the days of the red horse--Passover matching passover, and pentecost matching pentecost.

The White Horseman is our LORD as 'the self existent' God who led Israel out of Egypt--who 'went forth conquering and to conquer.'

The Red Horseman (red as in 'purrhos' which means flame-colored) is our LORD in the personage of His Son, for the time He spent among us, to teach and baptize with fire (Luke 3:16), to take peace from the world, to spread both sword (Matthew 10:24) and fire (Luke 12:49), and to triumph over death by dying Himself--which is the 'to conquer' part of the statement about the white horse.

It is said that horses always mean battle in the bible--but I don't perceive it in such a generic sense. The horse was not a beast of burden, and it was worthy for Kings to ride upon into battle, and also home in victory. Horses are majestic animals, likened to the 4 winds, and the conveyance of those who God has sent as Watchers over the earth. Satan and his crew never ride horses!


The significance of the seals, themselves, is one that is rarely addressed, either. A seal means that something is official, and guaranteed both to be untampered-with and trustworthy. If the king put his seal on something, you could feel secure about its integrity.

The same applies here: God put His seal on these 7 things--and not for the purpose of showing they concern worldly matters which are overseen by Satan (those exist day to day, already, and surely require no certification by God)-- but to show that these 7 things have/are/will be sent to us with the guarantee that they can be trusted as 7 divine manifestations of outworking through His Master plan for us--via both God in Spirit and God in flesh, as well as the marytred saints and the sealed and elect remnant of Israel. All these 7 have worked toward the same goal which is the salvation of the entire world--the great white robed throng of Gentiles mentioned in Revelation 7:13.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 12:26 AM
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Okay, then what about Hades and Death. Are those also Godly manifestations ?

Psalm 118:8 is good.

My favourite, however, is Proverbs 3:5,6.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 09:50 AM
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You really need to support your ideas with other scripture or else its merely extrabiblical commentary.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
You really need to support your ideas with other scripture or else its merely extrabiblical commentary.
I can't create support for my 'ideas' with other scriptures--either it exists or I am misleading myself and calling it 'guidance'.

That is the wrong order of bible study anyway. We must not develop ideas which we then search the scriptures in order to find support for our idea--that's a guaranteed detour!

The scriptures reveal God's word to us, as we read them. The understandings form as we go along, and we must not try to shape or steer them at all.

By the time I have a clear enough understanding to feel like I can responsibly share with others, there is no way I could make a coherent and concise presentation that included the complete path of my discovery--it would simply be too much, too hard to explain, and impossible to cite every single verse that shone light to me.

All I can do is share my conclusions and a few points of evidence.

The rest is up to you--study for yourself, see what it really says. If you don't want to consider what I say, then don't. But don't expect me to do your homework for you, I've still got loads to do, myself!




posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 07:01 AM
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If there is no scripture in support of your words, then ....?

The bible always confirms itself. The 4 riders will likely show up in some form in the OT prophets, just like much of the rest of Revelation does. Maybe in the gospels?
Letting your imagination fill in the blanks in revelation is not really the best way to go. Casting an insult about me not doing homework will hardly help the cause. I implore you to do more research of scripture to back up what you are teaching now.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
If there is no scripture in support of your words, then ....?
That is not what I said. Did you read what I replied, or just assume that since I didn't post more scriptural references that I have none? Please read it again. And I posted several key scriptures in my previous post (s). I may not have typed them out, but surely you have a bible with which to look them up? I don't want to post more scripture than my own words, that seems to be inconsistent with the rules of this forum, and takes up valuble space. On the other hand, it seems sometimes to be the only option, since I think that many won't bother to pick up their bible and read unless I post the verse itself.



The bible always confirms itself.
No doubt. But, as I said, its more like the bible 'reveals' itself, and for the most part, people use the bible to 'confirm their own opinions.' It's all about the 'menu' for study. As Paul said, there is first milk, then meat, and then Revelation is the 'desert'--you must read and read and read all the rest of the Word and eventually the meaning of Revelation makes itself known. It takes a long time, not just a study session or two. More like several years or a lifetime. The Revelation of Jesus Christ will be a revelation to every one of us and we will all get there in the end.




The 4 riders will likely show up in some form of the OT prophets, just like much of Revelation does. Maybe in the gospels?
What are you saying? Where did you get that idea? It is the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ'--not 'the Revelation of the prophets' or anything else. Christ has been revealed in the prophets--that is how we have their words to read in the bible! Christ will be revealed within each of us--that is the goal of both the Living and written Word--and our time on earth!

Letting your imagination fill in the blanks in revelation is not really the best way to go. Casting an insult about me not doing homework will hardly help the cause. I implore you to do more research of scripture to back up what you are teaching now.
Who's casting aspersions on who? I did not insult you by suggesting you do your own homework--just pointed out a basic fact that applies to all of us. I don't even know you, and would have said the same thing to anyone else. To feel that I've insulted you shows that you feel you must be defensive somehow. To follow that up with insinuating I've used my imagination shows that even more--just because you do not see the light in what I've said doesn't mean that I haven't done my research. I've done research for 28 years!

And did I not say I am not a teacher? I am only sharing what I've found, and I do not take any responsibility for anyone's blind belief in what I've said. I will repeat: search the scriptures yourself, meditate on the WORD with the Father, and He will reveal it to all who sincerely seek it.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:58 PM
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Now, see, while most people believe Revelations to be a prediction of what is to come at the end of the world, we as Catholics see it not nearly so much as a prediction, but more so as what was happening at the time it was written... Being that it is pretty much all in code, most of it's symbology is hard to understand by anyone who is not well versed on the subject. I personally believe that the book is entirely about the persecution of the Christians under Nero (whose name in the code translates to 666). Though I have read the left behind books and have many family members and friends who belong to religions that believe in the idea of being left behind, I myself do not believe in that and if I'm not mistaken, neither does the Catholic Church. It is interesting to read what other religions believe about the book though.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by joyouslyhumored
Okay, then what about Hades and Death. Are those also Godly manifestations ?

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Revelation 20:14)

Hades (usually translated from the Greek to 'hell') is properly defined as unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

It is not to be understood as being the lake of fire--it is thrown into that lake of fire (or 'lightning,' 'fiery pond'), along with death itself, and all who did not have their names written in the book of life.

We know that 'our God is a consuming fire,' and we know that the Son of Man will return 'as lightning from the east to the west'. God's Spirit is the source of fire in the lake of fire--and its express purpose is to purify and refine all the remaining corruption (by which I mean all matter that is subject to death and decay in our present world, all that has been corrupted by 'sin' and transgression) of this present age in order that all can pass to the next, for renewal. The temple of God above is absolutely pure, and we must be cleansed before we enter. All of us. We must go through the cleansing Spirit of Fire.

Proverbs 17:3
Isaiah 48:10-11


Christ died to save all flesh, all men.

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (John 1:7)

And His witness is given to all disciples, to propagate the presence of His Witness in the world.

All those who believe on and repent in His Name will pass judgment by standing cleansed within the Body of Christ. And these will serve, until the end of this age, as a light and witness of the Glory of God and the Gift of His Son to all men. But not all will receive this, and this is God's will, He plainly tells us so. But His will is also that all will be saved. And so they are saved by that purifying lake of fire, and after all have been refined, en masse, then both the grave and the route to the grave (death) will be no more. But until that time, sin and death reign here on earth, in their remaining limited time.

And our assurance is found in the resurrection:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Here are several references:
(John 13:35)
(Acts 22:15)
(Romans 5:18)
(Ephesians 3:9-11)
(John 5:21-26)
(John 12:32)
(Zechariah 13:8-9)
(Isaiah 25:6-9)

As for death, itself, being of God--it must be, because God is the source of life, and if He so chooses to 'cut off' any soul--they then experience 'death.' But this death is the fleshly kind only, the kind which occurs when His animating spirit (not quickening spirit through Christ) is taken from the body--just like as it being given is told of in Adam's creation--it is God that gives us life, and it is God that takes our life from us. But He is abundantly merciful and generous, and all will receive a better kind of life in the end, than the type which is temporarily experienced and lost in the interim.

Look at these three verses:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(1 Corinthians 15:45)

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
(Revelation 16:3)


The 'living souls' which die in Revelation are only fleshly men! And as is true for every single soul that ever has or will existed:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But for those that, in this present age, bury themselves with Christ, through baptism, in order to prepare the way for Him to quicken their souls with His fiery baptism of God's Spirit, there is an 'escape route' past the final judgment day and the dip in the lake of fire:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

But by no means will any soul escape the purification of the Refiner's fire--it is experienced by those He seals in their human lifetime:

(Romans 8:17-18)
(2 Corinthians 1:5-10)
(Philippians 1:29)
(1Thessalonians 3:4 and 2 Thessalonians 1:4-5)
(2 Timothy 2:12)

There are many more--Paul does not keep this fact a secret!

Finally, we know that the 'angel of death' is of the LORD, from what we read in Exodus. Satan is not the angel of death--there is another for that purpose. And that purpose is God's too--because if we never die in the flesh we cannot pass through to begin the life that is properly 'real'.




Psalm 118:8 is good.

My favourite, however, is Proverbs 3:5,6.


I like many verses in Proverbs, as well.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
(Proverbs 1:7)

And 2:1-11, too!

Did you know that Psalms 118:8 is the very center verse of the bible? It is indeed the supporting column of every other verse: Trust only in what God reveals but test and prove the words of every apostle, teacher, prophet, and spirit against the words of scripture, and only count as truth that which the Father reveals to your heart.

That is the true nature of the 'rock' which Christ told Peter He would build His 'ekklesia' upon, in Matthew chapter 16:

Jesus asked His disciples:
'Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?'
And they said,
'Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.'
Then Jesus said to them:
'But whom say ye that I am? '
And Simon Peter answered and said,
'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. '

And of course, Christ said to Peter:

'Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. '



[edit on 7/24/2005 by queenannie38]

[edit on 7/24/2005 by queenannie38]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:45 PM
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search the scriptures yourself, meditate on the WORD with the Father, and He will reveal it to all who sincerely seek it.


On this we agree.
I think we had a bit of miscommunication going on there but I can see by this statement that we are coming from the same place.

I did not say that you thought there was no more scripture.
As for the OT..you took that the wrong way...and I think it is this filter known as the internet that is fouling up communication.
Now, I 'could' take your comment about it being the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ' to mean that it is all new...but I know that you know Daniel revealed much of the same things.
So did Ezekiel and Isaiah and a few others.
But even though your words appeared that way on my end.. I know by the statement at the top of this post...it was not received in the manner meant.

That said... I think you should reconsider the 4 horses. Matching those events up with already spoken prophecy in the OT and the gospels helps alot



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:10 PM
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One more thing I must add in the interest of clarifying 'death':

The death of the flesh, the withdrawal of God's animating spirit, also means the termination of the soul's awareness of itself and its existence. Basically this = memory.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

This is the memory and knowledge of both all that one has done and been, as well as the relationship with God (whatever the character thereof).


For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
(Isaiah 38:18)

I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years. (Isaiah 38:10)


(Job 7:9-10)
(Psalms 6:5)
(Psalms 30:3)
(Psalms 88:5)

The grave that is the 'pit,' the place of dark nothingness, is not the same grave as that in which Jacob, Moses, David, Daniel, et. al. spent in 'sleep' with our father Abraham, awaiting the resurrection.

When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
(Proverbs 3:24-26)

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Daniel 12:2)

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
(Daniel 12:13)


To 'taste death' is to have your hard drive erased, so to speak. We will all live with God after this age--but some of us will know this and some of us will not. Some of us will take the rewards of our present work (in His Name) with us, and others will have their works of this life (done in their own name) burned to ashes.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:23 PM
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Not sure if thats what you meant.

By definition I am asking
Is there a firey place where those who opposed God will go for eternity?



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997


search the scriptures yourself, meditate on the WORD with the Father, and He will reveal it to all who sincerely seek it.


On this we agree.
I think we had a bit of miscommunication going on there but I can see by this statement that we are coming from the same place.
I'm glad we are on the same page as one another, then!





Now, I 'could' take your comment about it being the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ' to mean that it is all new...but I know that you know Daniel revealed much of the same things.
So did Ezekiel and Isaiah and a few others.
I'm sure all the prophets came to the same understanding--the same one which the Apostles did, as well, including Paul. We don't get the account of the Apostle's journey of the 'unveiling of Christ'--just the book written by John. But Paul's letters are full of clues that he had experienced the same.

To say we will all have the same Revelation is not to say that there will be any new or unique things given to our minds by God. But each of us must come to full knowledge of God by way of revelation--that is God's sole means of direct and authentic communication with our souls. Those that spread the gospel are doing so to expose to the world that there is a truth available, that is absolute and applicable to all men. By hearing they may then believe. And by believing they will come to the point of full revelation of our LORD Jesus Christ.

Revelation means simply 'unveiling'. The secrets of God are hidden things to those whose focus remains upon worldly things. But to those who choose the narrow path, these things unfold until all things hidden are fully revealed. And this does not happen through being taught by other men. Only the Holy Spirit can teach us the pure truth of Christ's accomplishment and victory for our sakes'. And this truth is the same for every soul, taught by the Holy Spirit and witnessed to by the light of His servants!



That said... I think you should reconsider the 4 horses. Matching those events up with already spoken prophecy in the OT and the gospels helps alot
I'm not really sure what you are saying, exactly, though. Maybe you could explain what you mean in a little bit more detail, because it's not clear enough for me to reconsider, if you know what I mean. But certainly I am willing.

As far as matching these events up--I don't see how that is lacking in what I've said. I've found all interpretation of Revelation solely within the pages of the OT, with a little in the NT. It's not all things that haven't happened, either--if Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, then the full unveiling of His work will be found evidenced in all that lies between.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Not sure if thats what you meant.

By definition I am asking
Is there a firey place where those who opposed God will go for eternity?
All are born opposing God. All will, at one time, enter a fiery place for the purpose of purification. This fire is the consuming fire of God's Spirit.

But we will not be there for eternity--although it is a necessary preparation for our eternal life with God.

But as far as 'fire forever' or even 'eternal opposition to God'--have you found absolute proof of such a place in the bible?

I have not. I have discovered that there is no truth in that idea, it is not supported at all by any other scripture. It is an idea that is created from cutting and pasting seemingly related scripture, but which is really not speaking of the same things, at all.

'Hell' is translated half the time from a word which means 'grave' in the sense of a dark and hidden place of unknowing (hades in the NT and sheol in the OT) and the other half of the time, it was originally written as the 'Valley of Hinnom' or 'Gehenna'. To understand the concept of that place, you must research the lives and society of the Israel nation at the time of Jesus's life.

Certainly the purification/punishment received in the 'hell' mentioned by Christ on the Mount, is not a pleasant or easy experience. No doubt it's no bowl of cherries if done before then, either! Suffering is suffering, and we must suffer for our LORD. Paul makes that clear. Not a bad exchange for what we will receive, either, as he points out. But we will all pass through the refining fire to life.

To translate that into the idea of a fiery place of eternal misery is an unscriptural doctrine devised by man! Spurred on by the powers of this world to keep us in slavery to fear and lies. Christ came to set us free of both fear and death, and religion would have us remain in those chains.

First of all, if the opposite of such an existence is 'eternal life', then it doesn't fit. To suffer forever is to live forever, and so that's unsound. But 'to die temporarily' is the exact opposite of 'to live everafter'. And with that death, the soul truly dies, never more to know itself, and to be truly 'as if it had never been.'

Beside that, it contradicts many, many other scriptures to say that God will bring undending torture to anyone who isn't 'saved.' Primarily because we are told more than once that Christ died to save all men, especially those who believe, but still, all men. And that God wills that all come to repentance. Not just Israel, not just gentiles, not just those who have repented in this age. We will all eventually repent and in the end, every knee will bow.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
(1 Timothy 4:10)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1 Timothy 2:3-6)



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

Im not here to argue the point. It goes away from the topic. I was just curious.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

Im not here to argue the point. It goes away from the topic. I was just curious.


I wasn't arguing--I was doing that for the benefit of others who might read. It's within the topic, though, because death and hell is a big part of the mystery of the book of Revelation--and the fear and dread that these ideas put in most hearts keeps them from exploring it and finding out that it is a book of joy and victory, full of only promising things for all souls.

So---what do you say? Yay or nay?



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 04:08 PM
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I think you have half of it down. (Revelation)

The other half is the culmination of "...in the day thou eatest there of, you shall surely die'


If there is no hell as the bible says...then I do not need to follow God now. I can party and have a good time because in the end, I will be where the 'goody 2 shoes' are.

Because of that... I must revert back to the OT examples.
There is an ultimate punishment for sin/rebellion/not obeying God.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
I think you have half of it down. (Revelation)

The other half is the culmination of "...in the day thou eatest there of, you shall surely die'
The day that they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they did die. They died spiritually, and no longer could they hear God's voice directly so that they could obey. They did not hearken to His voice and so lost the privilege of hearing it first-hand.

And so every one which was born after, was born 'dead' in the sense that they died that day. And without being given new life from God's Spirit, when the flesh dies, that is the end of the soul--being defined as a conscious entity aware of it's own being.




If there is no hell as the bible says...then I do not need to follow God now. I can party and have a good time because in the end, I will be where the 'goody 2 shoes' are.
Sure there is a 'hell' as the bible says--if the bible says so, then I have no point of contention.

But as far as there being a hell which is a place of eternal torture to serve solely as an unending punishment for all souls who did not give up their wills in favor of God's perfect will during the present age--there is no hell of that sort in the bible. And so therefore that should not be a valid motivation for anyone--because it isn't truth or reality.

However, this is not any reason to believe that there is not more than sufficient reason to leave the path of sin for the path of life at any moment in the present time--for anyone.

Christ died to save all men. And all men will come to the knowledge of the LORD and of the truth.

But it is of far greater advantage for one to come to that knowledge in a willing manner, in the present days, than for it to be arrived at on the day Christ returns to settle up all accounts. It's going to happen--but it can happen as something that brings blessing and reward, and glory to God, or it can happen because it is going to happen. It will bring blessing to everyone, but not reward. And of course, all things will bring Glory to God on that Day and afterward.



Because of that... I must revert back to the OT examples.
There is an ultimate punishment for sin/rebellion/not obeying God.

No doubt. An ultimate penalty doesn't mean 'eternal'--it means 'being last in a series, process, or progression', 'of the greatest possible size or significance,' as well as 'eventual.'

The only time the punishment is said to be eternal is in Matthew 25:46--and the translation of the word 'ainios' as 'everlasting' is not accurate. Ainios, in the Greek does not mean forever--because 'aion' does not mean forever, either. It means 'a duration', an 'age', 'world', or 'course (of time).' We live in one age, right now. And the time before the flood was another age. But the same token, we will be entering another age upon the return of our King. And that age is the duration of the punishment. How long? Who knows. '1000 years' in the Greek is also not right, it is properly defined as a 'period of unknown affinity.'

But the rewards that will be given should be more than adequate motivation--it is our desire to please and serve God that must be the compelling factor, not the desire to avoid penalty and punishment--which is the underlying motivation in the OT! And as we are told, there is nothing that can save us in that line of understanding. Only love can save us, not fear. If we love God, we will keep His commandments. And He and His Son will make their abodes with us, and we shall 'receive the reward' instead of 'avoid the punishment.'



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