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Grand Jury Docs Have Been Unsealed, and It’s Looking Even Worse for Manafort

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posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:12 PM
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a reply to: introvert

Oh okay, sorry Grambler, I see what you wanted me to look at. If that checks out, there could be a hole in the Podesta Group's story.
edit on 01pmWed, 01 Nov 2017 13:13:58 -0500kbpmkAmerica/Chicago by darkbake because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:13 PM
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originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: Grambler

From your thread:


However, when they were caught, they said that it was all a mistake, and they thought they were just working for a non profit, not the same Pro Russian president of Ukraine Yanukovytch that Manafort was charged for working for.


I will have to side with the Podesta Group's logic, as they were able to provide evidence that the head of the center told them it was not funded or directed by a foreign government. I'm guessing the Podesta Group was unaware of Manafort's use of the center to promote the Ukranian president.


From the indictment.


November 2012, GATES wrote to Company A and Company that the terms needed to prepare
an assessment of their past and prospective lobbying efforts so the President could be briefed by
Paul on what Ukraine has done well and what it can do better as we move into 2013



www.cnn.com...

They were told directly in email that there work was going straight to the Ukrainan president.

This is in the indictment.

This means that their claim that the didnt know they thought the work they were doing was untethered to a political party is a lie.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:13 PM
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originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Vasa Croe



Where there's smoke....

They've already been outed as having to refile multiple deals under FARA....and not just related to Manafort. A lobbying company knows the rules....especially after this long. Filing incorrectly is not a mistake they make, it is a mindful and purposeful decision made by the top dogs.


Sure.

That still does not prove that they did work directly for a foreign government, which is the silly trap Grambler is trying to set.


Here's one story on it with explanation and proof of them working directly for and meeting with a foreign government.

dailycaller.com...


Well, there ya go.

Does not apply to this case, but it does appear to be proof they worked for a foreign government, without proper disclosures.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:14 PM
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originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: Vasa Croe

It has nothing to do with the dems. Nice try.


24/7/365 delusion.
Do you need help getting around? Do you have a seeing eye dog?
Maybe help climbing the stairs like Hillary?
OR......
Some people on here are right, you are getting paid to post these constant deflections of the criminal Leftists.
It's really getting outrageous.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:14 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler



Intorverts claim is that maybe the President mentioned isnt the President of the Ukraine that they were doing all of the work about, but perhaps the president of the NGO, which is laughable.


It is possible they were talking about the president of the NGO. The word president is in quotations and there is no more context in that indictment that states it very clearly whom they were referring to.

It's very possible, and likely, they were referring to the president of the Ukraine, but we cannot say for sure and your assertion that it is definitive proof the PG knew they were working on behalf of a government-funded non-profit is incorrect.


In the exact same way that your definitive statement that the Indictment proves that they were not working directly for the Ukrainain government is incorrect.

It very liekly that you are right, but its not 100% proof.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:15 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Umm try looking it up.


The change to the GOP platform dropped a call for the U.S. to provide arms to Ukraine in response to aggressive moves by Russia that included the occupation and eventual annexation of the Crimea province from Ukraine in 2014. After the annexation, Russian President Vladimir Putin continued to fuel violent unrest in other parts of the Ukraine.

The amendment to the Republican platform came as a surprise just days before Trump was officially nominated for president at the party’s convention. Two Republican National Committee officials privately acknowledged at the time that Trump’s campaign pushed for the change. Trump denied involvement, however.

“I wasn’t involved in that. Honestly, I was not involved,” Trump said.





www.huffingtonpost.com...



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:16 PM
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originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: darkbake

This was all hashed out here.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



Sidenote, you seem to have thing for promoting your own threads on other threads.

Referencing stuff you said before to support stuff said now and directing people to your OPs seems squirrelly.

I don't cite my own mouth yesterday as a source to support what I am saying today.


Maybe its just that you are never making any points worth citing.




posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:16 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Umm I think it's up to you to prove they were.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:17 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Vasa Croe



Where there's smoke....

They've already been outed as having to refile multiple deals under FARA....and not just related to Manafort. A lobbying company knows the rules....especially after this long. Filing incorrectly is not a mistake they make, it is a mindful and purposeful decision made by the top dogs.


Sure.

That still does not prove that they did work directly for a foreign government, which is the silly trap Grambler is trying to set.


Show me where i said that they worked directly for a foreign government.

You are lying again.


ok.



They were told directly in email that there work was going straight to the Ukrainan president.


You said this, and it is a lie.

The indictment does not say their work was going straight to the Ukrainian president.

It says president...period, and it is in quotations.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:17 PM
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originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: introvert

Oh okay, sorry Grambler, I see what you wanted me to look at. If that checks out, there could be a hole in the Podesta Group's story.


No need to apologize at all, we are all just hashing stuff out.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:18 PM
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There are multiple lying posts here everyday that accomplish nothing more than another echo in the official RW media narrative.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:18 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler



Intorverts claim is that maybe the President mentioned isnt the President of the Ukraine that they were doing all of the work about, but perhaps the president of the NGO, which is laughable.


It is possible they were talking about the president of the NGO. The word president is in quotations and there is no more context in that indictment that states it very clearly whom they were referring to.

It's very possible, and likely, they were referring to the president of the Ukraine, but we cannot say for sure and your assertion that it is definitive proof the PG knew they were working on behalf of a government-funded non-profit is incorrect.


In the exact same way that your definitive statement that the Indictment proves that they were not working directly for the Ukrainain government is incorrect.

It very liekly that you are right, but its not 100% proof.



The indictment clearly states they worked for and was paid by Manafort.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:27 PM
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originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Vasa Croe



Where there's smoke....

They've already been outed as having to refile multiple deals under FARA....and not just related to Manafort. A lobbying company knows the rules....especially after this long. Filing incorrectly is not a mistake they make, it is a mindful and purposeful decision made by the top dogs.


Sure.

That still does not prove that they did work directly for a foreign government, which is the silly trap Grambler is trying to set.


Here's one story on it with explanation and proof of them working directly for and meeting with a foreign government.

dailycaller.com...


Well, there ya go.

Does not apply to this case, but it does appear to be proof they worked for a foreign government, without proper disclosures.


Correct. It doesn't apply to this case that we know of. The fact they did it before makes it much more likely though. A company that lobbys for a living knows these filings well and makes them constantly. Their incorrectly filing previously wasn't a mistake....and it has likely been done on more than these 2 occasions.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:29 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
There are multiple lying posts here everyday that accomplish nothing more than another echo in the official LW media narrative.


see what I did there....



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:30 PM
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a reply to: introvert

It does not matter if they worked for Manafort. They still have to file the correct paperwork which they did not. Podestas group lobbied for the Ukranian government in 2012. They did not register as foriegn agents till 2017. I would guess this is because Hillary is not in office and there is no longer protection.

Lionk



The Podesta Group and another firm, Mercury Public Affairs, are listed in the indictment as “Company A” and “Company B,” although it is not known which company is A or B. The two firms were hired by Manafort to lobby for the Yanukovych government in 2012 but did not register as foreign agents until 2017.

At an all-staff meeting announcing his departure, Podesta told staff that he was leaving because of the possible legal issues arising from Manafort’s indictment. According to Politico, which first reported Podesta’s departure, he said he “needs to fight this as an individual, but doesn’t want the firm to fight it.” Tony Podesta is a major Democratic Party figure in Washington, D.C. He and his brother, John Podesta, who was Hillary Clinton’s 2016 campaign manager, founded the Podesta Group in 1988, but John Podesta has not been involved with the firm since 1993. The Podesta Group routinely ranks as one of the top-earning lobbying firms in Washington.

In 2016, the firm raked in $24 million from its registered lobbying business, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. The allegations in the indictment related to the Podesta Group’s lobbying on behalf of Yanukovych, who had close relations with the Russian government, and his Party of Regions begin in 2012, when Manafort led a public relations effort in Washington during Yanukovych’s re-election campaign. Manafort hired the Podesta Group and Mercury Government Affairs, a Republican lobbying firm, as part of this campaign. But he hired them through the European Centre for a Modern Ukraine, a Belgium-based nonprofit that acted as an arm of the Yanukovych government, to mask the true source of the lobbying campaign.


What Podesta group did was also illegal. I am not saying Manafort is not guilty. By a long shot. However, what happens when he cuts a deal with Mueller because he knows other things? If he hired them don't try and tell me he did not know secrets about them. They all do in the inner circle.

Read the article....



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:36 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
Please don't do that after I respond to it.

Please don't assume that I did it after you responded--maybe I was typing it during and hit send, only to see that you responded later (which is what happened).

Don't assume the worst.



Thank you, but it does not change my position.

As of now, we have no proof they worked directly for a foreign government.

You are being willfully ignorant, then, because the notes that I directly quoted for you expressly notes that someone doesn't have to be the


As it applies to how the law will look at this, I will have to look at it a bit further. You may be correct.

One word throws-up a flag for me though: "willfully".

"Willfully" (and, generally, "and knowingly") are usually always part of a charge, but in the case of 22 U.S. Code § 612, "willfully" or "knowingly" is not a part of the verbiage that makes it an offense, and THAT is the section that really matters under Count Ten in the indictment.

Now, let's examine exactly what an "Agent of a Foreign Principal" is, by 22 U.S. Code § 611 definition:

(c) Expect as provided in subsection (d) of this section, the term “agent of a foreign principal” means—
    (1) any person who acts as an agent, representative, employee, or servant, or any person who acts in any other capacity at the order, request, or under the direction or control, of a foreign principal or of a person any of whose activities are directly or indirectly supervised, directed, controlled, financed, or subsidized in whole or in major part by a foreign principal, and who directly or through any other person—

      (i) engages within the United States in political activities for or in the interests of such foreign principal;

      (ii) acts within the United States as a public relations counsel, publicity agent, information-service employee or political consultant for or in the interests of such foreign principal;

      (iii) within the United States solicits, collects, disburses, or dispenses contributions, loans, money, or other things of value for or in the interest of such foreign principal; or

      (iv) within the United States represents the interests of such foreign principal before any agency or official of the Government of the United States; and


    (2) any person who agrees, consents, assumes or purports to act as, or who is or holds himself out to be, whether or not pursuant to contractual relationship, an agent of a foreign principal as defined in clause (1) of this subsection.

So, I don't think that I need to bold or italicize the pertinent portions of that definition--I'm certain that you can see that, by definition, "Company B" (Podesta Group) qualifies as an "Agent of a Foreign Principal" and could be charged under 22 U.S. Code § 612 in the same manner as Manafort and Gates if they did not register such activity with the Attorney General within specified timelines.
edit on 1-11-2017 by SlapMonkey because: simple mistake...in before you responded?



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:40 PM
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a reply to: darkbake


I'm a little lost at what you guys are arguing about, although to me, it seems apparent that the Podesta Group was working for a non-profit, not a foreign government, and that non-profit had claimed that they were not funded or directed by a government or political party.


The non-profit was a shell for the Party of Regions (it was founded by three PoR office holders) with SUPER sketchy funding (their annual budget was like $15k and they were supposed to be making a newsletter or something).

But it's pretty clear that everyone knew what they were actually doing which was lobbying directly for the Ukrainian government and quite possibly, indirectly for the Russian government.

Everyone involved should be punished along with Flynn for his Turkish lobbying. Apparently prosecutions for failing to file as a foreign agent are rare because they're has to be intent to knowingly deceive but the evidence revealed in the Manafort indictment seems like it will be enough to prove that for both Podesta Group and Mercury. The penalties include up to 5 years in jail.

None of these men should ever be allowed to resume any lobbying work at all, ever.

In fact, it seems that this exposes a wider problem with a lack of policing of foreign lobbying. To me, it seems like a separate, larger investigation needs to be done specifically into foreign lobbying practices. We can look in newspaper articles from 2014 and see that these groups were being accused of lobbying Congress illegally then and it doesn't seem that anything was done about it and you have to wonder how many other lobbyists are operating similarly.
edit on 2017-11-1 by theantediluvian because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:40 PM
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originally posted by: GuidedKill

originally posted by: Gryphon66
There are multiple lying posts here everyday that accomplish nothing more than another echo in the official LW media narrative.


see what I did there....


Good parrot.

Here's a cracker.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:41 PM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

Chuck Grassley's comment echoes yours.



posted on Nov, 1 2017 @ 01:42 PM
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originally posted by: matafuchs
a reply to: introvert

It does not matter if they worked for Manafort. They still have to file the correct paperwork which they did not. Podestas group lobbied for the Ukranian government in 2012. They did not register as foriegn agents till 2017. I would guess this is because Hillary is not in office and there is no longer protection.

Lionk



The Podesta Group and another firm, Mercury Public Affairs, are listed in the indictment as “Company A” and “Company B,” although it is not known which company is A or B. The two firms were hired by Manafort to lobby for the Yanukovych government in 2012 but did not register as foreign agents until 2017.

At an all-staff meeting announcing his departure, Podesta told staff that he was leaving because of the possible legal issues arising from Manafort’s indictment. According to Politico, which first reported Podesta’s departure, he said he “needs to fight this as an individual, but doesn’t want the firm to fight it.” Tony Podesta is a major Democratic Party figure in Washington, D.C. He and his brother, John Podesta, who was Hillary Clinton’s 2016 campaign manager, founded the Podesta Group in 1988, but John Podesta has not been involved with the firm since 1993. The Podesta Group routinely ranks as one of the top-earning lobbying firms in Washington.

In 2016, the firm raked in $24 million from its registered lobbying business, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. The allegations in the indictment related to the Podesta Group’s lobbying on behalf of Yanukovych, who had close relations with the Russian government, and his Party of Regions begin in 2012, when Manafort led a public relations effort in Washington during Yanukovych’s re-election campaign. Manafort hired the Podesta Group and Mercury Government Affairs, a Republican lobbying firm, as part of this campaign. But he hired them through the European Centre for a Modern Ukraine, a Belgium-based nonprofit that acted as an arm of the Yanukovych government, to mask the true source of the lobbying campaign.


What Podesta group did was also illegal. I am not saying Manafort is not guilty. By a long shot. However, what happens when he cuts a deal with Mueller because he knows other things? If he hired them don't try and tell me he did not know secrets about them. They all do in the inner circle.

Read the article....


I did not say the PG is not responsible for their part, only that they did not work directly for the government of the Ukraine.



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