Navy releases partial reports on McCain and Fitzgerald

a reply to: jaws1975

a reply to: Edumakated

There have been multiple studies about that increased automation and accidents. The findings would surprise the hell out of you. In cases where there is more automation, you are more likely to see an accident caused by something surprisingly simple. I can cite several cases in commercial aviation where crews didn't understand how the automation worked, or thought the automation would keep them out of trouble, and wound up crashed, or came within seconds of a major accident.

a reply to: Edumakated

So instead you'll go looking for the shadowy boogey man, when the answer is staring you right in the face. OK. Have fun with that.

I seem to recall in the news low morale on the USS Shiloh. I wonder if low morale was a contributing factor for these two collisions or if it's at least being considered.

Massive Morale Problems on US navy ship

a reply to: auroraaus

Almost certainly. Once low morale comes into play people stop worrying about doing things right and start just trying to get it done. There's a huge difference between a unit with good morale and one with low morale.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I also think the fault is inadequate training.

Proper drills, certification and quality stand-downs would have probably ferreted out the reasons why this crew reacted as it did. The are not stupid, just improperly trained, and the responsibility goes right down from the Captain to the Seaman.

The military is especially vulnerable to this kind of entropy, as the troops are usually in a leader/follower mode. If a junior service-member observes a leader making a mistake, they may not recognize it because they may think that senior person knows what they are doing. It is really everyone's duty to watch over one another on a vessel, and it is all about training.

a reply to: charlyv

I've seen that happen more than once, fortunately the end result wasn't bad. There used to be an almost automatic deference to people that were in for a long time. The new guys assumed that since they've been in so long, they've seen it all and know what to do.

It's not easy to convince someone that telling someone they're wrong is a Bad Thing. Especially when the people that they're saying it to are likely to take their head off.

I saw a great example lately. Someone posted something in one of my groups, so others could laugh at something the new guy did. Someone said they could teach them the right way, and he told him that's what school is for, and he doesn't have time for that crap.

I am not surprised its human error in both cases as training has be reduced by ops tempo throughout the armed forces, but I am surprised the CO was directly involved in one case. I assumed both stemmed from junior members not being properly trained while the CO is not on watch. Yet the CO was pretty much at fault for the McCain incident. Heads should roll pretty high up if a CO wasnt up to snuff and was in charge of a ship that was involved in a preventable accident.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: charlyv

I've seen that happen more than once, fortunately the end result wasn't bad. There used to be an almost automatic deference to people that were in for a long time. The new guys assumed that since they've been in so long, they've seen it all and know what to do.

It's not easy to convince someone that telling someone they're wrong is a Bad Thing. Especially when the people that they're saying it to are likely to take their head off.

I saw a great example lately. Someone posted something in one of my groups, so others could laugh at something the new guy did. Someone said they could teach them the right way, and he told him that's what school is for, and he doesn't have time for that crap.

My unit had some great training for beating "the old guys know best" out of new members. They would have E-2s and E-3s work with and/or follow up an NCO that was terrible but not bad enough to be removed. I will never forget the first time I followed up on him and found so much # wrong... Good eye opener coming from tech school.

The military has seen a migration of good people leaving or being relieved of command for the past several decades. Obama was particularly hard on higher ranking officers that didn't agree with current policies. Combined with insufficient budgets and training these are the inevitable results. Morale in every branch is at an all time low.

Something just terribly 'wrong' with the notion that such sophisticated ships of war cannot avoid a huge, lumbering tanker, let alone a hostile, sea skimming missile.

Wrong as in mysterious and suspicious.