a reply to: AngryCymraeg
* - Resisting a lawful arrest, detention or stop is self explanatory -
If, during the course of an official investigation, an officer is unable to do his / her job as a direct result of another party's actions you get
the obstruction charge. If the situation continues and the officer decides to take the person obstructing into custody and that person resists the
arrest you get the resisting charge.
Resisting can take many forms. A person can actively resist by fighting the officer to prevent being taken into custody in addition to passive
resistance (going limp / sitting down / refusing to walk / refusing to place hands into position etc). You can get verbal resistance which is where a
person decides to argue every action / decision with the officer.
Law enforcement can explain what they are doing / investigating to a 3rd party up to a certain point (some investigation content will not be released
to non law enforcement). You eventually reach a point where the person the officer is dealing with can either comply or not comply and risk the
This goes back to what I was saying about medical staff needing to concern themselves with the patients medical condition and not legalities in a
* - I know you are discussing this one issue however I am trying to explain to you that we moved beyond that one incident. My post and position deals
with this specific incident but in general terms. Moving beyond this one incident does not guarantee the next encounter will have a good result. Its
why I keep pointing out that Hospital policies dont apply to non employees nor do they trump local / county / state or federal law. This one incident
reinforces the false view that medical staff is immune from arrest and can argue with law enforcement any time they wish with no consequences.
Each criminal case, regardless of state, is viewed, reviewed and judged on the facts for that one specific incident. Just because encounter A is the
exact same as encounter B does not mean the same outcome is going to be the same.
* - From a hospital standpoint she was within policy. At the time of the incident the detective was also within policy. (as were university police).
What is missed by some is medical staff did call for hospital security and university law enforcement to intervene on the nurses behalf. They told the
nurse that it was a criminal issue and would not interfere with the actions of the detective. That info, what the nurse wanted, reinforces a potential
obstruction and resisting charge.
It does not matter that a person thinks they are right and law enforcement is wrong. That determination is up to the courts. It is why the resisting
is a stand alone charge. Her refusal to comply with the detective when he went to take her into custody coupled with her trying to back away from the
detective, pull away once he went hands on, her struggling to break free while being escorted outside - all goes to a resisting charge. A person who
is intentionally taking their time can qualify under resisting as well.
Hell 2 more medical staff members also obstructed / interfered with the arrest when they went out side and tried to place themselves between the
detective and the nurse. It is why he threatened them with arrest in the video. Those 2 staff members complied and subsequently were not arrested /
* - The Chief and Mayor apologized because it was a bad pr political component only. I maintain law enforcement in that area has had previous
problems with the Hospital / Hospital staff. I say that because I have experienced it first hand. The worst was medical staff refusing to comply with
a warrant citing Hospital policy as the reason. The DPA drove to the hospital and explained to staff that if they did not comply they would be
arrested and charged.
Your examples are to vague to respond to to be honest. Each situation is unique and will always vary. In all my years I have never seen an officer
refuse to explain anything to anyone they are dealing with when asked. Where the issue comes in is when medical staff thinks they are entitled to know
everything about an investigation and try using Hospital policy to block and action until they are given more info.
The law does not work that way and again medical staff needs to concern themselves with the part that applies specifically to them -medical treatment
/ patient care and not criminal investigations.
As for my "default position" I can make the same argument in reverse. People not familiar with the legalities involved ignore information that places
something into proper context. As people accuse me of only seeing the leo side the same holds in reverse.
As for damaged relationships it is a 2 way street.
As for me and "reassurance" I dont know what to tell you. I am presenting the side that many people on this site refuse to do for various reasons. I
explain the legalities, link to information to help them try to understand the "why's" and we go from there.
Just because a person hates law enforcement does not mean they should not try and understand each situation.
I also stated the detective was in the wrong. Its why I am using this situation to explain the overall issues beyond just this incident. If you are
going to get stuck on this one incident and nothing else then you are not going to understand my posts or the inf contained.
Finally there are still currently 3 different investigations that are still unresolved.
What would you think if the PA charged the nurse / other medical staff with obstruction or resisting?
I'll add something else. As you are a LEO you are not reassuring me about the wisdom of approaching you in any kind of official capacity.
You do not live in the US. You are not a law enforcement officer in the US. You are not familiar with the laws / court rulings that govern our law
I reject the premise that I am not "reassuring" given our respective backgrounds / experience in this area. Since the investigations are on going she
is not a victim.