catalonian parliament declares independence from Spain

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

Except that many people didn't want to get a beating just for heading to the polls. Maybe, eventually. Who would've thunkt! Nice spin though, lets just deny the fact that another police state went full blown berserk again. Well. Played.

Want to show any videos with Spanish police pointing their guns at voters, or do you decide to make up a claim just because you want to?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: PublicOpinion

What does reprinting and circulating our declaration have to do with Spain?

He/she is just grasping at straws because he/she knows not to have an argument.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: PublicOpinion

You must be the last Murican around or something, the authoritarian cult Of King George is strong with this thread.

Same with Franko-esque politics. I.e., Fascists.

I find it ironic how leftwingers want to bash at Franco but they ignore or deny why Franco was able to take control of Spain...

All the leftwing groups in Spain decided to unite and they decided that since they were "leftwingers" (socialists, communists, etc) they didn't want religion, and they didn't want capitalism, so the leftwing groups, except the Basque, let a revolt in which in three months they murdered over 7,000 priests. they also murdered people for being capitalists. It is not known exactly how many people were murdered by the left in Spain in 1936, but estimates say about 72,000+ people were murdered in three months by leftwingers groups. These leftwing groups in Spain also destroyed churches, and they destroyed religious statues.

Since the majority of the people in Spain, to this day, are Catholic and capitalistic, this allowed for Franco to take over and stop the massacres that the left was partaking in. Was Franco brutal against the left and leftwing sympathizers? Sure he was. Because those people were not going to stop unless they were stopped by someone like Franco.

I am sure that to this day there are still Spaniards discussing in pubs how during Franco's time there was no crime and people in Spain were able to walk the streets at any hour without being robbed or attacked.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Vaguely close and definitely no cigar

The counter-revolutionary massacres from the left - which are were an order of magnitude smaller than Franco's Represion - started after Franco 's military rebellion. There were no massacres or chekas during the Republic before 18 July 1936. There was occasional streetfighting in Madrid - Ian Gibson's "La Noche Que Mataron a Calvo Sotelo" describes it well - but Spain was ruled by a broadly liberal, democratically elected coalition government.

In July 1936, most Spaniards were happy with the Republic. It gave them a vote, it gave them rights. That's why it took Franco almost three years with the might of HItler and Mussolini behind him, to win. At a tangent, the majority of people in Spain today are notionally Catholic. On any given Sunday, the churches are as empty as anywhere else in western Europe, depending on immigrants from central and eastern Europe to put bums on pews.

Franco eventually won because the left failed to unite.

After Franco's uprising, the Republic shifted left in jumps and starts. At first, it tried to keep the radical militias in check but, after Durutti's anarchists saved Madrid in the autumn of 1936, it fell apart until Stalin came along.

The Soviet backed Communist Party decided they wanted control and suppressed everyone else from the liberal republicans to the anarchists and socialist libertarians. Once the pact with the Nazis was in place, Stalin walked away from the War. To assume that the counter-revolution, like the Republic before it, was of one mind is simplistic.

From day one, Franco's repression was not just aimed at the left. It was aimed at anyone that might have disagreed with him. The first thing his troops did when they took over an area was round up everyone they thought might be a problem. Anyone. Including women and children, as the slaughter in Badajoz showed.

After the war, the diehard leftists fighters ended up mainly in France. When the Germans invaded in France, those who could joined the Free French Forces on the vague promise that the Allies would take Franco's pro-Nazo regime out after the war. The others were interned in concentration camps.

Back in Spain, La Represion took in anyone Franco and his supporters didn't like. You had a piece of land the local falangist leader wanted? A beating and jail. You didn't walk in the road and doff your capy when the local terrateniente walked towards you? A beating and jail. You ran a school to teach adults to read? A beating and jail.

And when you were in jail, any number of people - from soldiers to nuns - could "identify" you as "a communist". Before dawn the next morning, you'd be taken out and shot by a local road. Your body would would either be buried in a communal grave or left as an example to others.

That's if you were lucky. If you were unlucky, you got the garrote vil. It was brutal enough with an experienced executioner. A clumsy one, intentionally at times, would slowly drive a big screw into the base of your skull.

There was a small, ineffective Communist resistance but the post 1939 Spanish left was based in Eastern Europe. Check out Paul Preston's biography of Santiago Carrillo, "The Last Stalinist", for an even handed account.

Yes, there are Spaniards discussing how things were better in Franco's time, just as there are Russians who miss Stalin. There are also many, many Spaniards who want to know where their murdered grandparents are buried.

And that's why Spain takes its Constitution very seriously.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

Want to show any videos with Spanish police pointing their guns at voters, or do you decide to make up a claim just because you want to?

Not so much now, but thirty years ago the Spanish police were very handy with their guns. The barrel of a machine gun sobers you up quicker than an intravenous expresso!

I was surprised more people weren't hurt and nobody was killed.

Just saying..

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I find it ironic how leftwingers want to bash at Franco but they ignore or deny why Franco was able to take control of Spain...

Because Hitler helped him. I notice you left that part out of your 'history lesson'. Covertly at the time, it was Hitlers first use of Stuka dive bombers.

Several early Junkers Ju 87 dive bombers, which first flew in on 13 September 1935, were shipped secretly from Germany to Spain to assist General Francisco Franco's Nationalist rebels in the Spanish Civil War. Several problems appeared, including the tendency of the fixed undercarriage to sink into soft ground and an inability to take-off with a full bomb load. Condor Legion experience in Spain demonstrated the value of dive bombers especially on the morale of troops or civilians unprotected by air cover.

Hitler's pre WWII intervention in Spain

Franco was a fascist, helped by Hitler who was a fascist. Spain is still Fascist, as we saw during the suppression of voting in the referendum, the disbanding of Catalan Parliament after the vote for Declaration of Independence, and call for new elections. Dictatorships behave this way.

The only "Irony" here is the EU and Us playing along with the Iron boot heel tactics of the Authoritarian Regime in Madrid.

originally posted by: intrptr
Spain is still Fascist, as we saw during the suppression of voting in the referendum, the disbanding of Catalan Parliament after the vote for Declaration of Independence, and call for new elections. Dictatorships behave this way.

The only "Irony" here is the EU and Us playing along with the Iron boot heel tactics of the Authoritarian Regime in Madrid.

Nonsense.

The referendum was illegal under the Spanish constitution. A constitution that keeps all authority in check.

The declaration of indepedence is only symbolic because it has no legal basis.

The disbanding of the Catalan parliament is entirely within Madrid's authority because it is only a regional assembly, same as regional assemblies in the UK and most other European nations. The Spanish do not have states' rights like the US. It is not a federation. Some functions are devolved, including the power to issue bonds, but that's about it.

Is Rajoy being clumsy, yes.

Is Rajoy an authoritarian, no although he might like to be.

Is Rajoy a fascist? The Spanish had a fascist dictator within living memory. Their definition is diferent from yours.

The biggest irony is the way some people assume the leftists Catalans, who want to stay in the EU and the euro, who are heavily in hock to the Chinese, are some kind of freedom loving conservative anti-globalists.

Oh, and as for the US supporting dictatorships? That's not ironic. There's a long and still vibrant tradition of it...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I'd rather read articles instead (check my older posts for articles) but here you go:



And I'm not grasping straws, just sharing a funny anecdote regarding the ban of documents. That's all.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Lovely democracy basics video. Are these police units even responsible for their actions?
We are the People, we have the numbers, just dismiss Your fear.

a reply to: residentofearth

"Just following orders".

I'm pretty angry to see crap like that in our officially democratic EU. European values are fine to wage wars with, but only when the banking troika agrees. Our political hypocrtites are willingly escalating such situations since G20, and I believe they try to provoke riots or even civil wars. But there's hope that the Ghandi in us will prevail.

#Devide&Conquer

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

Except that many people didn't want to get a beating just for heading to the polls. Maybe, eventually. Who would've thunkt! Nice spin though, lets just deny the fact that another police state went full blown berserk again. Well. Played.

Want to show any videos with Spanish police pointing their guns at voters, or do you decide to make up a claim just because you want to?

You really think its ok for a government to send in police to beat people just trying to cast a vote? Putting their mark on a bit of paper and shoving it in a ballot box...Yeah that really needs a lot of head cracking.

a reply to: SprocketUK

You missed out the word "illegal".

You know, like Catholics in Ulster wanting to vote in the 1960s.

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese
a reply to: SprocketUK

You missed out the word "illegal".

You know, like Catholics in Ulster wanting to vote in the 1960s.

Just because a government declares something illegal, doesn't mean they have the right to beat the hell out of people, especially when the illegal thing in question is bloody voting.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Maybe not civil war, but continuously situations as a pretext to take away more human rights.

Now we are waiting for the next move from gov. in Madrid article 155.

Puigdemont: «Let's have patience. The best way to follow, - is the democratic opposition to 155»

source

originally posted by: intrptr
Franco was a fascist, helped by Hitler who was a fascist. Spain is still Fascist, as we saw during the suppression of voting in the referendum...

Franco was indeed a Fascist. He was a complete bastard. However, Spain is a democracy. Trying to suggest Spain is a fascist state is a crass fallacy.

The actions of the police were overboard and have been rightly condemned. However, they were no worse than the recent G20 riots, and the certainly more gentler than the repression of protesters in Moscow recently.

Unfortunately, for the people of Catalonia this is not a question of democracy...

Through the vagaries of history, or the vagaries of someone’s bedroom, Spain got control of Catalonia for almost 1000 years.

Now they have the Army, the guns, and the self-serving law and tradition on their side, so this is a closed issue.


Spain aught to be big and do the right thing and still let them have the degree of autonomy they had

a reply to: paraphi

The actions of the police were overboard and have been rightly condemned.

By others, yes. Which is worse and a sign of systematic abuse. Take it straight from the horses mouth then:

Saenz de Santamaria has labelled the Catalan quest for independence "a farce" and said that police violence against voters and protesters at the time of the October 1 independence referendum was "proportionate."

Catalonia: Spain's deputy prime minister takes charge

There's no need to relativize anything of this. Are we comparing Europe with Russia now? Seriously?

a reply to: Whodathunkdatcheese

Nonsense.

The referendum was illegal under the Spanish constitution. A constitution that keeps all authority in check.

Voting = "Nonsense", got it. Suppression of voting in any state is a criminal act.

Sich Heil

a reply to: paraphi

Franco was indeed a Fascist. He was a complete bastard. However, Spain is a democracy. Trying to suggest Spain is a fascist state is a crass fallacy.

To fascists. They always hide behind a facade.

The brutal suppression of voting in the referendum was indeed fascist behavior.

Kind of hard to cover that up.

Its like a rash on the internet.