catalonian parliament declares independence from Spain

originally posted by: Ohanka

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: 200Plus
a reply to: PublicOpinion

Did the American people "vote" or their independence from England?

*crickets* indeed

Independence is earned, it is fought for, it is paid for. It doesn't come from the end of a pen.

They voted with lead,and bullets. If catalonia wants to be free they should do th esame.
ANd If independence dont come from a pen then th e"palestinians" should just give up righ tnow.

You must've missed a lot of modern history.

Particularly the Palestinian people's decades-long war of resistance against their occupiers.

Palestinians didnt exist until recently(past 40 yrs) Ive posted evidence before it was a KGB/PLO operation to harass or destroy a U S ally in th emiddle east in favor of Russian backed puppet state. If oyu wan tto get technical Israelis are th etrue palestinians because they were Israeli palestinians until the creation of Israel and then called themselves Israelis.

a reply to: paraphi

The legality of the declaration has been disputed. Serbia sought international validation and support for its stance that the declaration was illegal, and in October 2008 requested an advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice.[5] The Court determined that the declaration did not violate international law

en.wikipedia.org...

Point being... the referendum doesn't violate international law either. Does it?

a reply to: SprocketUK

Well, that sucks. Now there will be trouble.

Cataluña is going to tank. Then many others down the line.

The EU will lose Spain in the long run. I am calling it now. Spain will follow the UK.

Does Catalonia have their own army, if not they can't do much but submit

originally posted by: Willtell
Does Catalonia have their own army, if not they can't do much but submit

They have a 17,000 man police force.

They fought the Spanish Police a bit over the past month.

So no, not really.

originally posted by: 200Plus
a reply to: PublicOpinion

Did the American people "vote" or their independence from England?

*crickets* indeed

Independence is earned, it is fought for, it is paid for. It doesn't come from the end of a pen.

We did actually... Learn history before you attack it.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I'm always willing to learn.

When did America gain its independence through a vote?

a reply to: 200Plus

The Declaration of Independence is the statement adopted by the Second Continental Congress meeting at the Pennsylvania State House (Independence Hall) in Philadelphia on July 4, 1776,

en.wikipedia.org...

Also, they signed the Treaty of Paris with the end of a pen.

originally posted by: 200Plus
a reply to: Xcathdra

I'm always willing to learn.

When did America gain its independence through a vote?

The Continental congress... The concept of a continental congress was first raised in the 1750's. When the first assembly was called in the early 1700's the delegates were selected by the respective colonial assemblies who were elected by the people.

The US has never been a Democracy but a Representative Republic, even before our independence.

The delegates who voted for independence in fact spoke for their respective colonies that they represented.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Indeed. Just as Catalonian parliament voted for independence.

Neither one was in the least bit approved by the superior powers and the paper meant nothing. Until action was taken and independence was earned.

England didn't received the DoI and say "Very well, best of luck!".

Are you implying it was the Declaration of Independence that made America a sovereign nation?

I would contend that the declaration was simply that, a declaration. It was the colonies saying "no more". The actions and the war that came after the declaration (more importantly the results of that war) are what made America a sovereign nation.

A paper and quill may be the first step on the road to freedom and many times that is the case. However, no country has every been created (or "born") without pain. That pain often comes in the form of violence and conflict.

Though as I said, I am always willing to learn. If proven wrong I'm willing to admit it.

(one could argue the Treaty of Versailles created countries without bloodshed, but it built those countries on top of corpses after terrible bloodshed so it would be a deceptive argument)

a reply to: 200Plus

Actually France and Poland were instrumental in the independence of the 12 (13) colonies from British rule. Without those 2 nations we would still be singing God save the Queen today.

a reply to: Xcathdra
Do you mean France and Holland?
In that era, Poland was in the middle of being partitioned by her neighbours.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Xcathdra
Do you mean France and Holland?
In that era, Poland was in the middle of being partitioned by her neighbours.

I am referring to Polish General Pulaski who came over and fought for Gen. Washington and was the father of American Calvary.

and France - Gen. Lafayette.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I didn't see anything in there about independence being granted through a vote.

When was freedom granted to the United States of America through any type of vote, be it democratic, representative republic, or any other form of representative government.

a reply to: 200Plus

The continental congress held a vote to declare independence. They were sent their by the colonial assemblies and spoke for the people.

Freedom came to the United States with the support of France and several other nations. Without those nations supporting us we would not have won the war.

You claimed a vote was not held when in fact a vote was held.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Without a doubt. I am by no stretch saying new nations must "go it alone".

Without Baron Von Steuben (a Prussian) its doubtful the first continental army could have fought as effectively as it did.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Perhaps it is a misunderstanding of wording that is causing the conflict.

I know a vote was held. Many votes were held.

I said Independence did not come from the vote. The vote is simply the desire for independence. Anyone can desire to be free. The men in prison can "vote" until their fingers fall off, but they will not get out.

The "vote" is simply the first step. Action is still needed to gain independence. Just as it was then. Freedom isn't free.

EDIT - I can see where my initial post reads as "did they vote for independence" where I typed it as "did the vote bring independence" if that makes sense. Totally my fault for wording it poorly.

a reply to: 200Plus

Well... the DDRs independence was granted by some Bolsheviks and led to the unification of my fellow Krauts. I guess one could say that we're in different times by now. You didn't wage an actual war to dissolve the UdSSR either, did you?

Still, your stance bears some truth and I wont argue with that. There are Ghandi_esque exceptions and we'll see how this one plays out.

a reply to: Xcathdra

No - they held an illegal referendum where the majority of the affected population did not vote. They did not vote because the election was illegal.

Madrid tried to stop the referendum vote beforehand because they knew the outcome... Independence. Its been that way for a hundred years. Whats illegal is suppression of their right to be a independent state if they want.

Saying 'thats illegal' over and over doesn't make it just.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

You must be the last Murican around or something, the authoritarian cult Of King George is strong with this thread.

Same with Franko-esque politics. I.e., Fascists.