Funny- Interesting Iranian War Scenario

Suppose some country with rich mineral deposits of uranium wishes to develop the technology for peaceful purposes.

Just because the USA doesn't like it is not a reason to disallow.

Moreover, the history of american intervention in Iran (political mongering in the 1970s) is one recent example why american intentions and proposals for "negotiation" should be ignored.

Look what happened to Iraq. An advanced country in the middle east, on its way to democracy, now wrecked and destroyed.

Originally posted by StarBreather
Look what happened to Iraq. An advanced country in the middle east, on its way to democracy, now wrecked and destroyed.

Saddam was a Democratic ruler?

Please explain how Saddam was moving them toward Democracy before we attacked?

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by StarBreather
Look what happened to Iraq. An advanced country in the middle east, on its way to democracy, now wrecked and destroyed.

Saddam was a Democratic ruler?

Please explain how Saddam was moving them toward Democracy before we attacked?

Well they did elect Saddam by like 99% of the vote. Remember how it seemed like the whole country was out there hitting Saddam's portraits with their shoes after he fell? Well it turns out that was just 1%. The rest of that fine democracy was at home mourning their deposed leader. LOL

There are definately some wrongs in American foreign and economic policy, but to claim that Saddam and Khameini are innocent victims is ridiculous. Their PEOPLE may be innocent, but not their regimes.

If you're looking for someone to defend against America try Venezuela. They don't deserve what America is doing to them.

"On its way to democracy" is an external observation of the evolution of the nation-state, as conditions of life improve.

With or without Saddam, Iraq was way more advanced than Saudi Arabia, in every aspect. Sooner or later, the people of Iraq would demand democracy.

In this context, American intervention has been a setback, until now totally destructive, with no positive points (besides ending dictatorship, so what?).

Originally posted by StarBreather
"On its way to democracy" is an external observation of the evolution of the nation-state, as conditions of life improve.

With or without Saddam, Iraq was way more advanced than Saudi Arabia, in every aspect. Sooner or later, the people of Iraq would demand democracy.

In this context, American intervention has been a setback, until now totally destructive, with no positive points (besides ending dictatorship, so what?).

This is true but dated. In the late 70s Iraqi was the economic and intellectual hub of Arab civilization. They were on the brink of realizing Arab nationalism- they even managed several brief unions with Jordan and I believe once with Syria as well.
Saddam ruined that in the 1980s by attacking Iran though. If it weren't for the Iraq-Iran war there is a fair chance that Iraq could have had a decent future, but a flourishing free democratic state? Let's not get carried away. The fact is that Iraq should not be- it's demographics are not suited to a unified national identity, much less democracy. Iraq was doomed the minute the British drew up its borders. Even Winston Churchill acknowledged that Iraq was a mistake.

Eastern Iraq probably should have been sold to Iran by the brits and The eastern part including the Sunni triangle should have been one with Syria.
The Kurds were pretty much screwed either way of course, but putting the Shia and Sunni together might not have been such a smooth move.

This is true but dated. In the late 70s Iraqi was the economic and intellectual hub of Arab civilization. They were on the brink of (more blablablah)

I was referring to Iran, not Iraq. The monarchic
rule of the Shah Reza Pahlavi had American support, until he was deposed by revolutionaries (like Khomeini).

Khomeini was not only an "Islamic radical" but also a strong nationalist. Not at all like Saddam (a regular politician turned dictator), but a planner for the long term.

Because this turn of events didn't please Washington, they have since been wary of any act of self-determination coming from Iran. Here is something they can't control.

Iran is a sovereign country, Iran can do as it pleases.

Originally posted by StarBreather
I was referring to Iran, not Iraq.

Look what happened to Iraq. An advanced country in the middle east, on its way to democracy, now wrecked and destroyed.

Alright, but you can see how it would have been easy to misunderstand you.

The monarchicrule of the Shah Reza Pahlavi had American support, until he was deposed by revolutionaries (like Khomeini).
Khomeini was not only an "Islamic radical" but also a strong nationalist. Not at all like Saddam (a regular politician turned dictator), but a planner for the long term.

Saddam was nothing if not a nationalist, and I don't know how you call somebody a "regular politician" when he comes up as an interrogator and secret police boss, then assumes power by placing his president under house arrest. Saddam was also a great planner. What makes Saddam stand out among Arab leaders, according to his biographer, is that he was organized and a planner. So where is the difference?

Because this turn of events didn't please Washington, they have since been wary of any act of self-determination coming from Iran. Here is something they can't control.

Fair play there, I'm not going to defend America's meddling in the affairs of others, but on the other hand lets not forget the oppression of young Iranians who are against the theocratic government. They get their butts kicked by mobs of stick-wielding zealots every time they open their mouth. You do remember that don't you, or do I have to dig up old news articles?

Iran is a sovereign country, Iran can do as it pleases.

Economically it can. According to the UN though it is not lawful for them to persue nukes unless they are on the security council.
Then there are human rights to consider. No amount of sovreignity justifies Iran's treatment of women and pro-democracy students.

Saddam was nothing if not a nationalist, and I don't know how you call somebody a "regular politician" when he comes up as an interrogator and secret police boss, then assumes power by placing his president under house arrest.

Americans never having had a dictatorship, don't know how "regular politicians" can turn sour. Love of power at all costs: what makes a democratic president run for a second term? Is he so much better than everyone else, that without him the job can't be finished?

Saddam was also a great planner. What makes Saddam stand out among Arab leaders, according to his biographer, is that he was organized and a planner. So where is the difference?

Saddam, although a notable planner, was a negotiator and an ingratiator until the end. Look how easy the american invasion was: either Saddam didn't expect it for real or he believed his own lies (not likely). In the end, he had no armed forces to oppose. One reason for his weakness was the acceptance of the USA-UN imposed conditions.

lets not forget the oppression of young Iranians who are against the theocratic government. They get their butts kicked by mobs of stick-wielding zealots every time they open their mouth. You do remember that don't you, or do I have to dig up old news articles?

Let me try another way: war is insanity.
Look at the destruction, human lives and human work, all destroyed (in Iraq).
Would you like to see the same happening in Iran?
Just for the sake of some 20th-century ideology of "freedom"?

Economically it can. According to the UN though it is not lawful for them to persue nukes unless they are on the security council.
Then there are human rights to consider. No amount of sovreignity justifies Iran's treatment of women and pro-democracy students.

There are larger issues at stake here.
1. National defense, totally legitimate.
2. Political stability: nothing can be done otherwise.
On both these issues, the Americans have been pressing for their own self-interest.

Once again I gotta prove you ( Spliff 4020 ) wrong AGAIN about YOUR constitution, so I'll shut it DOWN RIGHTNOW, NO WHERE, NOWHERE!! in the U.S. constitution do your founding Father's EVER, EVER EVER, EVER use the word Democratic Republic, DEMOCRATIC, nor DEMOCRACY, NOT ONE TIME , NOT EVEN ONE TIME, ANY WHERE in the 1. Declaration of Independance, 2. The Constitution, 3. The Bill Of Rights, nor 4. The Federalist Papers, not ONCE and to ALL, AND I MEAN ALL YOU AMERICANS who are reading this I Infinetly DARE ANY of YOU to Pick up YOUR Constitution and TRY and PROVE me wrong ONCE AND FOR AAAAALLLLLLL !!

[edit on 13-2-2005 by SiberianTiger]

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
Once again I gotta prove you ( Spliff 4020 ) wrong AGAIN about YOUR constitution, so I'll shut it DOWN RIGHTNOW, NO WHERE, NOWHERE!! in the U.S. constitution do your founding Father's EVER, EVER EVER, EVER use the word Democratic Republic, DEMOCRATIC, nor DEMOCRACY, NOT ONE TIME , NOT EVEN ONE TIME, ANY WHERE in the 1. Declaration of Independance, 2. The Constitution, 3. The Bill Of Rights, nor 4. The Federalist Papers, not ONCE and to ALL, AND I MEAN ALL YOU AMERICANS who are reading this I Infinetly DARE ANY of YOU to Pick up YOUR Constitution and TRY and PROVE me wrong ONCE AND FOR AAAAALLLLLLL !!

[edit on 13-2-2005 by SiberianTiger]

Siberian, disengage your headquarters from your hindquarters post haste.
Our constitution lays the foundation for a democratically elected republican form of government. The use of the words is completely irrelevant. Suppose I wrote a contract in which I agreed to pay somebody for causing you to die, but didn't use the word "hitman"- the person I hired would still be a hitman. Same with our constitution. The contents of the document clearly overwhelm any attempt to argue over the wording.

Thats what I thought I better hear, your accepting there is no word Democracy in ANY FORM. read it and learn from your Congressman www.house.gov... Here's more of what Ron Paul is trying to teach YOU Americans about being American AKA ( Learn to have a backbone ) www.infowars.com...

[edit on 14-2-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 14-2-2005 by SiberianTiger]

Learn to have a backbone....Thats good. I think our countries backbone is way stronger than your country. At least we have the fortitude to do whats neccesary. You can preach all the "America will go down in flames" all you want. Its wrong. Morons allways say that. Yet we stand.

Hell, even the French are sniviling back towards us. SIberian, dont you get it? WE ARE UNTOUCHABLE...Sure maybe a couple of idiots can crash a plane here and there, but thats about it. And even then, they screwed that up the first time.

Iran will be nothing. Probably easier than Iraq. The midddle east has been thumbing its nose towards us for years. We've always treated them with our little white gloves, afraid to "offend" them. Well, the time for talking has ended.

We will talk participate in any talks with Iran. They think that they have a say in this matter. They dont. They will disarm, and cease nuke production or suffer the consequences. And they will be severe...Look forward to more topic shifitng from you in the future.....

u know what....america has a really bad attitude toward those in the middle east, asia and even europe.....north korea already has nukes china is close and iran is workin on it....when that day comes that the u.s. makes someone really mad we are goin to me crushed....too many enimes in too many places.....i cant wait for the day when the u.s. to go up in smoke

Originally posted by firestarter666
u know what....america has a really bad attitude toward those in the middle east, asia and even europe.....

Our government does because they have corrupt business interests. Americans themselves would be so pissy with the world if the world wasn't being so pissy with them too. It's a two way street. It's not like anybody else has an honest government either- you can't just blame America alone. Your governments are making corrupt deals with our government and selling you out, otherwise your governments would stop America's corrupt government.
It's a joke that private citizens have to hate eachother over this crap, because they ahve a common enemy.

north korea already has nukes china is close and iran is workin on it....

China already has nukes bud. You've got to be careful about facts.

when that day comes that the u.s. makes someone really mad we are goin to me crushed....too many enimes in too many places.....i cant wait for the day when the u.s. to go up in smoke

We've already got plenty of enemies who have the bomb, and they aren't doing a dang thing. Would you like to know why? Because if one country goes up in smoke everybody else goes up in smoke too. Think before you talk man. People who are always shouting "this country or that country is gonna get reduced to ashes hahaha" all need to get a life as well as an education.

No moving in any direction from me, back on topic, so what do you have to say about the Democracy thing hu?

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
No moving in any direction from me, back on topic, so what do you have to say about the Democracy thing hu?

you dont even know the topic of the thread YOU started?

its not Democracy its about Iran war senerios

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
No moving in any direction from me, back on topic, so what do you have to say about the Democracy thing hu?

It's all I can do to stay ever so slightly civil with you are contributing so little. I've already answered your ridiculous claims about the US constitution. The US Constitution clearly describes a republican form of government which is to be democratically elected. The presence or absence of the words is completely irrelevant.

What exactly is your contention here anyway Siberian? What form of government do you claim the US constitution sets forward, how is this in any way related to the thread topic?
All you have offered so far is anti-semetic and anti-american propaganda. I'll be eagerly awaiting an intelligent, meaningful, and factually based post from you. If you don't care to give one, then I think I'll leave you alone to wallow in your ignorance.

keep quiet cuz I'm talking to SPLIFF 4020.

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
keep quiet cuz I'm talking to SPLIFF 4020.

I beg to differ. You have made a general statement about the US constitution on a public message board. It could be answered by anyone. I can understand your confusion though. Considering your country's incredible dearth of experience with freedom I'm not surprised that you would order me to be silent in the face of your deeply flawed propagandist claims, but that's not how the free world works.

You're in luck though- you just made my ignore list, so you wont be hearing from me much for the next few weeks.

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
keep quiet cuz I'm talking to SPLIFF 4020.

oh for the love of god... read this

Our constitution lays the foundation for a democratically elected republican form of government. The use of the words is completely irrelevant. Suppose I wrote a contract in which I agreed to pay somebody for causing you to die, but didn't use the word "hitman"- the person I hired would still be a hitman. Same with our constitution. The contents of the document clearly overwhelm any attempt to argue over the wording.

Do you ever read anyones post? Or do you just not grasp the english language as well as us? Alls you are doing is delfecting point after point. You can hardly tell me what MY COUNTRY is based on. You live in an ice covered, shell of a formerly great nation. Your country is insignificant. Your governement is inept. The only reason America still takes care of you is you have lots of nukes. Thats the ONLY reason America gives a rats a-s about what happens in that drunken tundra you live in.

The whole world wwants our money and help when the chips are down, but when we say NO NUKES, well "How dare those arogant Americans". Face it Siberian, your nothing but an angry bitter loser from the cold war. Accept defeat. Your leaders allready have. We've won, You've lost. Feel free to respond when you awake from your latest binge.

Or should I say, feel free to distract and lose your point again. Why dont you just get a visa and get over here before the civil war starts up again? Not even your vodka is superior any more.