It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

An opioid named Squirrel

page: 6
28
<< 3  4  5    7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 12:38 AM
link   

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
it sounds cold and heartless, but we can blame the user's inability to deal with pain and pain medication as the leading cause of the opioid epidemic. I don't believe the government should intervene here.
No, it doesn't sound cold and heartleas. It sounds absursly, overwhelmingly uninformed and idiotic. You have zero idea what you're talking about.




posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 12:39 AM
link   
a reply to: DBCowboy

Trying to distract us from the fact cancer rates are so high so big Pharma can rake in the bucks.

I mean seriously - when you have places all over the world that spend millions on "Free Injection Sites' for heroine?

How much money is spent trying to LIVE on cancer drugs that kill.

Yep, squirrel woks here.

Opposite of the old squirrel joke - 'Show me you're nuts'... (Meaning crazy)...



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 12:44 AM
link   
a reply to: silo13

Most can't even afford those cancer drugs, we're talking 50k to 100k for a damn shot or pill?

What evil genius thinks this shight up?

If that's not the work of a god or ET, it's the work of an A.I. or a horridly sinister simulation.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 12:55 AM
link   

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TinySickTears

No we don't.

Sometimes, you can't make it go away, and sometimes, the things you try to do either only make it worse or are counter-productive to what you are seeking.

A little pain is not a bad thing. In a lot of ways, it can actually be good. Speaking in terms of an injury, pain is your warning that you are going too far. If you eliminate that pain, you run the risk of hurting yourself worse. One of the things that makes college and professional level athletics so dangerous no matter what the sport is that the trainers try to walk that fine line between eliminating your pain and running the risk that you exacerbate your injury to the point where the final cure ends up being much worse than the initial injury would have indicated.

And sometimes, alternative therapies like a heat and ice regimen or ultrasound will work better in the long term than simply popping pills even though they may not provide immediate or lasting relief.

you.... you realize that there are other kinds of injuries ad pain besides those related to athletics, right? Things that can't poasiy be treated by things like ice packs? I'm sure you do. Which makes your "points" either extremely disingenuous, or woefully ignorant.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 05:09 AM
link   

originally posted by: Maroboduus

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TinySickTears

No we don't.

Sometimes, you can't make it go away, and sometimes, the things you try to do either only make it worse or are counter-productive to what you are seeking.

A little pain is not a bad thing. In a lot of ways, it can actually be good. Speaking in terms of an injury, pain is your warning that you are going too far. If you eliminate that pain, you run the risk of hurting yourself worse. One of the things that makes college and professional level athletics so dangerous no matter what the sport is that the trainers try to walk that fine line between eliminating your pain and running the risk that you exacerbate your injury to the point where the final cure ends up being much worse than the initial injury would have indicated.

And sometimes, alternative therapies like a heat and ice regimen or ultrasound will work better in the long term than simply popping pills even though they may not provide immediate or lasting relief.

you.... you realize that there are other kinds of injuries ad pain besides those related to athletics, right? Things that can't poasiy be treated by things like ice packs? I'm sure you do. Which makes your "points" either extremely disingenuous, or woefully ignorant.


i agree with you.
i have been talking to a member via PM here about it.

people like some in this board constantly think they know what it is like because they have some pain and they can deal.
i am convinced most dont know what it is like to deal with extreme pain all the time.

i have extreme pain in my hand all the time. my fingers hurt and sometimes they burn. my fingernail on my middle finger hurts. i get a nodule that grows on my middle finger that will burst and eventually come back and do it again. sometimes my shoulder hurts far more than my hand does. when it gets cold it is far worse. the pain and burning gets worse. my fingers are stiff all the time. i have a hard time regulating my body temperature.
all this from a traumatic amputation.

all these doctors on here think eh, people cant deal with some pain.

they have no idea how it can be

i know not all of that is a pain issue i just say these things cause all the internet doctors dont know the kind of # that can happen to a person

who needs med school then residency then internship and then fellowships when you already know everything on ATS cause you have tennis elbow and can manage with ibuprofin.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 05:25 AM
link   
a reply to: TinySickTears

Personally I've found painkillers don't work for my long term pain (not trying to claim others should go without). I shattered my shoulder and nearly lost my arm five years ago due to being run over by a car. The accident caused me to have seizures (turned out had a brain injury and now epileptic) so at the the time Drs had to withdraw any form of painkiller (not even asprin) until seizure cause was determined. In that time I learnt to 'meditate' the pain away, but that doesn't make me better or worse than others, I just had no other choice at the time and have a naturally high pain threshold (went to work then walked to hospital after being run over).

Personally I'm in constant pain with nerve damage but if I don't think about it then it doesn't hurt. If I take pain killers, it hurts after cessation of painkillers. On the lucky side I don't find them addictive or anything like that (seen people far stronger than myself lose the plot when they have no [pain meds or take it a couple of times and get obsessive)

While I strongly believe in different strokes, different folks - the evidence behind the placebo effect is so strong that people can undergo surgery and feel no pain when injected with saline water (when under the impression it will kill pain). The brain is an incredibly powerful tool for good and bad, opoids are generally pretty bad.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 06:00 AM
link   

originally posted by: bastion

Personally I've found painkillers don't work for my long term pain


While I strongly believe in different strokes, different folks - the evidence behind the placebo effect is so strong that people can undergo surgery and feel no pain when injected with saline water .


to the first part. that is great evidence to prove that everyones physiology is different. what works for me does not work for you. what works for you does not work for me.
that is why i get agitated when people say that "oh its just people not being able to deal with pain"
jut cause they can dont mean i can.

to the lat part i dont believe it
i know the placebo affect is a real thing but it has its limits.
you start cutting people open and i dont think saline will work

just an opinion



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 07:51 AM
link   

originally posted by: Macenroe82
a reply to: DBCowboy

In my city - Thunder Bay Ont, we have 6 maybe 7 opioid dispensing clinics- methadone, and suboxone.
We have less than 90K people living here.
Every Main Street here has a methadone clinic on it.
The doctors here were told to push oxy's by pharma.
So they did. In its wake is left a city that deals with an overdose every 6 hours.
Every 6 hours for a city under 100k population! It's sickening.
You see these people walking around like the dead.
Literally Laying in the streets waiting for the clinic opens to get their fix.

Myself, I'm on suboxone. And have been for the past 4 years or so now.
I got myself addicted to pain killers that I was prescribed by my family dr.

The new fad here is fentanyl.
Everything is all about fentanyl now.
The deals are even pressing the stuff to look like oxys to sell.
In Canada there was an over dose death every 6-8 hours on fentanyl alone.
The Opioid addiction started with Purdue pharma. Claiming their pills were not addictive, so naturally doctors would prescribe them like candy....and get major kick backs for doing so.



That is the most depressing bit of info I have read in awhile. I didn't realize it was that bad there.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 12:27 PM
link   
a reply to: TinySickTears

I'm only harping on about it because I think it could help people, perhaps even yourself.

Operating from the very premise you introduced, doctors struggle to understand this nearly as much as anyone since they don't have any personal experience with it and we definitely don't fully understand pain in general.

The gate control theory seems to be the prevailing understanding, but in my opinion and experience, it is severely lacking in some areas.

The simple idea I proposed: keep doses relatively low and encourage the patient to try to go an extra hour or two in between doses when possible.

This both fights addiction potential and keeps the long term pain from growing out of control due to sensitization. One unmentioned issue with the latter is that it can create the perception that the condition is worsening when it isn't. Which, for someone such as myself, is a genuinely scary prospect.

A patient who is taking, say, 800mg/day of oxycodone (fairly high dose..) may actually have a better quality of life, and less pain, in long term management if that dose were reduced. This also enables short term bursts of higher doses to become more effective, and in lower amounts, for periods where the pain is more out of control than others.

Outlooks like this, in my opinion, will end up being more effective across the board than many current approaches. It may seem that taking more directly equates to less pain, but in the long term this simply isn't true.

In my experience, these pain meds are both prescribed for issues they may not help much, like nerve pain, and frequently arent prescribed in cases where they should be prescribed. In your case, I genuinely hope they/you have tried medium-term courses (~3-6mo) of GABA analogues, among some others.

They don't always work, but when they do, they can completely eliminate certain types of nerve pain permanently.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 12:35 PM
link   

originally posted by: Serdgiam




A patient who is taking, say, 800mg/day of oxycodone (fairly high dose..) may actually have a better quality of life, and less pain, in long term management if that dose were reduced. This also enables short term bursts of higher doses to become more effective, and in lower amounts, for periods where the pain is more out of control than others.



it is clear to me now that you really dont know what you are talking about.

nobody is taking 800 milligrams a day of oxycodone. no doctor is prescribing someone 800 milligrams a day of oxycodone.


maybe maybe maybe if someone has terminal bone cancer or some # they would get prescribed 500-600 milligrams of extended release # per day...
maybe
if they are terminal and dying ...


you have been going on and on about all this and then you post that bull#


i just read it again and it sure seems like your implication is that people on that for LONG TERM management will be better off on a lower dose.
you are so far off the mark on that

800 milligrams a day
ha


edit on 28-10-2017 by TinySickTears because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-10-2017 by TinySickTears because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 01:00 PM
link   
a reply to: TinySickTears

I was trying to use an extreme example to get the point across.

And, yes, there absolutely have been cases when that dosage was administered after long term adjustment to current doses. Would you believe there have even been cases where thousands of mcg of fentanyl were prescribed?

Of course, I was also talking about illicit use, wherein I still perceive the individuals as "patients" who are attempting to administer their own "cure." Its a blurry line, partially due to current approaches.

I maintain my stance about the lower doses. Of course, in some cases, it becomes a situation where the continuance of the medications supercedes the desire to actually lessen the pain.

You can keep claiming my ignorance and laughing at the points I'm trying to make, but I'm guessing I have quite a bit more experience than you assume.

I mean, you have heard of hyperalgesia, right? My whole point is that it isn't the only factor in play in effective long term management and that mitigating such factors becomes just as important as typical pain control. This is something that is completely irrelevant in short term management.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 02:02 PM
link   

originally posted by: Serdgiam

I was trying to use an extreme example to get the point across.

Would you believe there have even been cases where thousands of mcg of fentanyl were prescribed?

.


well that was a terrible example because nobody is getting prescribed 800 milligrams a day. its jut not happening

what point are you trying to make with the fentanyl?
micrograms is not the same as milligrams

i used to get prescribed 1600 microgram fentanyl lozenges.


i keep claiming your ignorance cause you mention doses that nobody is prescribed and then you mention microgram doses. i really cant follow you

if you are saying the average chronic pain sufferer is getting in the thousands of micrograms of fentayl then i say i dont believe you yet again.
i got mine pulled like 10 years ago when it was mandated they were for breakthrough cancer pain only.
so 10 years ago..maybe
these days. nope

maybe a 1000 microgram fentanyl transdermal patch that lats for 3 days



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 02:15 PM
link   
i feel i should apologize for being a dick and being abrasive about this but my entire adult life there has been the stigma. now i dont mean you per say but people always try to compare the pain they feel with the pain of others and if they can manage then so can others.
people like to think they are in the know cause they saw a 60 minutes about some pill mill doctor in florida or kentucky and they saw a special on the fentanyl problem from china and they think they have it all figured out.

i am talking about the real problem now, not 10 years ago.

the problem now in almost 2018 is the older people that have their pills stolen or they sell themselves because they have to choose between meds and food.
the problem now is people either going out of the country themselves and bringing pills back to sell.

the problem now is the internet has made it so people can have pills sent right to their house if they are so inclined.

that is where the majority of the problems lie.

i am sure doctor shopping still exists to a point but it is #ing difficult to do. everything is piped together these days.
you just cant do it like you could 10 years ago.

you cant get high dose pills in large quantities from the dentist anymore. you cant get them from the er. you cant get them from your family doctor.
the problem is getting better.

even the prescriptions themselves were easy to copy 10 years ago
now there are water marks and heat sensitive markers on them. no refills. no faxed prescriptions. no partial fills.

much much harder to get away with it these days.

no matter what though as long as there are drugs of any kind there will be people that use them, abuse them and sell them because people like to get a buzz and people like to get money.

hard for some people to pass up even when they are in legit pain

people on medicaid getting 120 count bottle of high dose # will sacrifice half of them when the street value of them is $1500.
when you get a person making that or less than that in a month it is very tempting

or they will sell 90 of them for $1800 and trade the other 30 for 100 lower dose of something else so they get cash and medicine.

i dont know how to go about it but they way to crush it is to crush the market

people will always find away to get messed up. always have and always will
no getting around that

we just need to learn how to crush the illicit market and fight it the right way

like i said fighting the manufacture of illegal drugs by putting a cap on the liquid cold medicine i buy is not the way to do it



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 02:59 PM
link   
a reply to: TinySickTears

I'm not claiming its typical, I'm claiming the opposite. That these are extreme cases where short term methodology is being used to drive long term treatment. To be clear, you are wrong that such dosages have never been prescribed. If you feel
time frame impacts things, we are having a pretty major miscommunication.

You are correct that mcg and mg are different, the respective strengths of the medications are also different, which is why they are measured differently. Thousands of mcg of fentanyl is, again, a "fairly high dose." The specific case study I'm thinking about here had the patient under enormous amounts of opioid pain medication that simply stopped being effective in controlling the pain. It had more effect on psychology than physiology, which is an important factor in precipitating addiction potential. Though, in this case, that wasnt pertinent. More importantly in this instance, the patient likely had to live out the rest of their short life in significantly more pain than if another approach was utilized. There just wasn't enough time to do anything, which I find tragic.

You are also correct that these cases are years and years old, but I dont feel that impacts their relevancy to the point. They show that, at a certain point, increasing dose not only gives diminishing returns.. due to the nature of the problem, it ends up backing both patients and their attending physicians into a corner.

How much have you looked into case studies regarding pain management, end of life care, hyperalgesia, etc? They are extremely enlightening when coupled with personal experience.

This is what happened to me, personally, and the doctors were at a loss as to solutions. My pain is at high enough levels, at all times, to cause anything from constant fainting to stress and lack of sleep induced seizures. Losing effective pain management, irrespective to cause, is likely to equate to a death sentence. Think about that in context with what I have been saying.

Its an aspect of the topic that, beyond decreasing quality of life, fosters the psychology that more pills unequivocally results in quality of life improvements. To the point where most patients won't even consider otherwise. This type of thought process greatly affects addiction potential and with the current course of events making it more and more difficult to gain proper pain management.. its a recipe for disaster. One that might just be intentionally manufactured.

Regardless, I'm not at all convinced the situation is actually improving. While statistics are notoriously tricky, it seems that problems are getting worse. Of course, that could be used to push for whatever the goal is here, so its hard to have confidence in that assertion.

From what I have seen, illicit use of opioids (including heroin) is on the rise while legitimate patients are finding it more and more difficult to receive proper treatment. I'm also of the mind that black markets are impossible to "crush" or eliminate.

I think the topic should focus primarily on approaches for legitimate patients (like I have been talking about) and then looking at the entire drug black market as a whole. But, if there is something going on behind the scenes, that might be next to impossible.

I do understand the stigma though, I've probably had to deal with it just as much as you, if not more. It can be frustrating.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 03:12 PM
link   
a reply to: Serdgiam

i have not looked into them at all
please link me to some things where people were prescribed 800 milligrams a day.
i will read those

i agree that 1600 mcg is a high dose

i also think the time is relevant to the discussion
if these things were happening 10-20 years ago to be honest i am just not interested

what i go by is my own experiences, personally and from people i have known over the last 20 years i have been taking pills



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 07:53 PM
link   
I take hydrocodone and everytime I go to the doctor I gotta hear how bad they are, how addicting they are, how the gov is going to cut people off bla bla bla. I have 3 physical permanent disabilities that at times are excruciatingly painful and at times leaves me tied up in bed for days and I need to use a walker to get out of bed. So people like myself are made to suffer now because of a bunch of junkies? I haven't had any in the last week, but I like to have some on hand when I need them. I also do therapy at a clinic working out on machines that cost thousands of dollars. The average person can't own or afford these machines. They want to talk about alternative therapy. Sure it all works good when the insurance is there, and the jobs are there and this rat ship economy isn't sinking. So when one of those fails so does the "alternative" medicine just so you know.

They're already heavily regulated. For each refill I have to see my doctor for a written prescription, take urine tests. I jump through all the fiery hoops just to obtain them. The cost of the pills is like $20 dollars. The cost of the office visit it's $200 dollars, not including the $100 dollars for the urine test. It takes $300 dollars to get $20 dollars of pills. This is how insane our society has become. People wonder why everything is unraveling at the seams.

So their argument is that 20 thousand people died from narcotic pain killers yearly, but also fail to mention that 88 thousand people also died that same year from alcohol related deaths. They also fail to to mention, out of how many of those narcotic deaths are of low income, homeless people with problems that have no insurance, or money to see doctors and are now forced to buy crap off the streets.

There are dangers in everyday life. Yes people are junkies and yes, people self medicate and, yes tomorrow I could be ran over by some drunk driver. So my rant to the government, is to quit feeding me a bunch of baloney statistics for a problem that you help create in the first place. I wouldn't be in physical pain if I didn't have to work 2 jobs just to make ends meet.



posted on Oct, 29 2017 @ 10:50 AM
link   
a reply to: Maroboduus

You sound like my husbands doctor.

He has a brain tumor. The op.would either kill him or remove what function he still has. It would not necessarily remove the pain either of the headaches of neuralgia.

He was on both morphine and oxycodone. A very small.daily number were prescribed. The doc wouldnt increase that number with jis increased tolerance. So he was constantly kicking, in wds.

Taken exactly as prescribed, any opiate leads to physical addiction. Your body needs it. Or it complains. He was treated like a criminal every monthly visit to get the script. Theres nothing he did wrong to get physically addicted to the pills. He is terminal.

After watchinv him suffer, his needs for larger doses over time being denied, we decided to get him off the pills and away from opiates.

He is now living with pain, using medical pot instead.

Anyone who says, like his doc did, that a terminal patient should put up with some pain, is a vicious, compassionless, souless sorry.excuse for a person.

Prohibition doesn't help junkies. Punishing pain patients with holier than thou proclamations of tolerating pain, and don't be so.weak.as to.allow addiction, when addiction to opiates is an inevitable physical response, is just idiotic.



posted on Oct, 30 2017 @ 01:44 PM
link   
a reply to: TinySickTears

Well, they were being used as extreme examples of the mantra that more pills always equates to less pain. As far as I know, nothing has changed in the field other than mitigation factors to reduce abuse of the pills themselves (different matrix suspension, etc.).

Its important because I feel that effective pain management should be the driving factor and priority, rather than focusing on abuse at the expense of effective pain management.

I've actually taken care not to specify doses beyond extreme studies. It can illuminate the nature of what foundation has been instilled in a given patient. I feel that, on average, most pain patients would do better on higher doses. At least after the impact of measures taken against abuse that have reduced efficacy.

The cold reality here though, is that there will be pain. 100% elimination of pain is impossible at a certain level. At that point, it becomes about keeping the pain that comes through to the lowest level possible.

If extreme cases show that even enormous doses of opioids are still fallible in this respect, where is the actual level of balance and how do we achieve it?

My opinion is that due to the subjective nature of things, a large component of figuring that out is the patient themselves. However, to gain useful and accurate feedback, some of the current approaches need adjustment as they are detrimental.

Teaching the patient that there will be pain, no matter the dose (even enormous doses), is a place to start. Then, in an ongoing process, the patient becomes as acclimated as they can to actually managing the pain rather than starting down the endless road of trying to remove the pain completely with pills. At that efficacy threshold, the patient needs to be made capable of determining it accurately and honestly.

Because, beyond the fact that these medications are incapable of actually killing pain, despite colloquialisms, that psychology will also increase addiction potential, and can make things physiologically worse through actions like hyperalgesia, addiction potential, and even tolerance. In my estimation, this coupled with the current approach are a huge factor in many issues on the topic. And they will not be solved by proposed measures, emotional pandering, or a shotgun approach.

There is a time period of maybe 60-90 days where none of this is particularly relevant. Maybe even as much as six months in some cases. But, beyond that, other factors come into play and the answer may be neither prescribing more medication or eliminating all treatment, but a balance of the two driven by accurate, analytical feedback from the patient. Trying to approach these things from a generalized standpoint, with hard limits and rules or the opposite, just providing more and more medication, is ineffective and harmful in so many ways.

Basically, I feel that a lot of the right pieces are there, they just haven't been assembled correctly yet. Things like meditation and acupuncture are not alternatives, they are complementary tools in a fight we do not yet fully understand, and the ones who can give the best insight, patients themselves, are generally not equipped to do so. Their idea of pain management is total eradication of pain, or attending physicians are unwilling to listen when doses should be increased.

The fact that those are the two most common perspectives is troublesome to me. Many patients react viscerally to the notion of lower doses being more effective, even without actually knowing the doses in question. Coupled with the proclivity of doctors to reduce doses based on general guidelines and "ethics," we have the underpinnings of a nightmare where the line between addict and legitimate patient is so blurred as to be inconsequential. I believe we are already starting to see that line blur.



posted on Oct, 30 2017 @ 02:32 PM
link   
a reply to: Serdgiam

How, pray tell,would conplimentary therapies help a brain tumor? There is absolutely no need for pain, any pain. From my experience doctors at least primary practitioners do not prescribe enough pain relief. Trying to fob off a brain tumor patient with horribly addictive tramadol, which also acts as an unwanted antidepressant, without telling the patient about antidepressant action, in my opinion was malpractice.

From there gabapentin was tried. Did nothing but lead to other side effects.

Opiates work. But the doc was not willing to increase dosage with opiates.

I do hope if you are ever in pain some wiseacre tells you that you have to put up with it.



posted on Oct, 30 2017 @ 03:51 PM
link   
a reply to: Wulfrida

They might help, and they might not. That's the whole idea of them being complementary rather than blanket alternatives. It seems the general reactions are to dismiss them completely or push them as the only solution.

Ideally, there is no "need" to experience pain. However, we currently do not have any methods which completely eliminate the pain. Period.

Opioids are the best we have, for certain pains, but there are severe drawbacks with simply increasing doses in order to eradicate pain. Simply put, its an impossible task, no matter how much we might wish otherwise for ourselves or our loved ones. And, in the end, may be putting us/them in more pain.

If you, or someone you love, is experiencing severe pain.. you do have to "put up with it," at least some of it. Its absolutely horrendous and horrific, but we do not have any method to eliminate pain completely, only mitigate it. I genuinely, truly hope that changes.

But until then, basing our approach on higher dosages always being more effective, or the inverse, that pain meds are to be avoided at all costs, will both result in the patient being in more pain. And, create an environment that blurs the line between addict and legitimate patient.

Like I said before, I'm personally motivated by enormous levels of pain. High doses resulted in a worse quality of life, and more pain, than lower doses. This began to become a major concern roughly eight months to a year into my issues. After years of research and personal experiments, I came to the conclusions I am talking about here and now. But, pain management using opioids is still a very, very critical factor in my treatment. One which has been greatly compromised in the current environment.



new topics

top topics



 
28
<< 3  4  5    7 >>

log in

join