An Olive Branch

originally posted by: TerminalVelocity
a reply to: dfnj2015

You just proved my point: Simply finding a person that everyone likes for POTUS alone will not fix everything.

No, you just proved my point! You said Democrats never compromise. I showed you the evidence that they do. But you refuse to change your point of view because you are a Republican!

a reply to: dfnj2015

And you just showed how you can't stay on topic.

The OP is about finding the perfect POTUS that everyone would like.

YOU decided to make it into political crap instead, by whining about Democrats and Republicans.

Typical.

BTW - No I'm not. (means you're also ignorant).

Have a nice day.

In a nutshell... it'll never work.

The problem is that too many people disagree on what is best for the country... even on whether 'country' in that context refers to the Gross Domestic Product, the stock market, our 'reputation' in the world, our contribution to global issues, or the prosperity of the population... as far as that goes, goes the word 'population' apply to everyone, or only those below a certain income?

How can we agree on a leader when we can't even agree on the problem he/she is to solve?

I'll contribute though. Someone way back on page 1 mentioned we needed a list of what we wanted from this leader, so here's my list:

• I want to be able to live my life in peace, without government intrusion into everything I do.
  
  
• I want to be given the same respect and opportunity as everyone else, without regard to physical differences.
  
  
• I want the benefits of my country used for my benefit first, then for the benefit of others.
  
  
• I want to be able to believe what I believe without being cat-called, harassed, or persecuted.
  
  
• I want the police to ensure that I have a reasonable expectation of safety, without removing my ability to provide a measure of that safety myself.
  
  
• I want the military to defend our country, not to try and spread our beliefs across the globe onto those who do not want them.
  
  
• I want the law to apply to everyone equally.

That's what I want... no, that's what I expect... no, that's what I DEMAND from our government.

TheRedneck

Olive branches are an act of conscience. Trump supporters reject conscience. No sign of that changing, so what's Plan B?

originally posted by: silo13
a reply to: 3daysgone

What kind of 'leader' would everyone accept - for good?

The divide is so wide - who could fill the shoes for all parties?

Well, let's be clear... if an Olive Branch is being extended, it's being extended to very rigid people who seem to only support the most offensive people... So we just have to gag our own conscience, just turn that switch off and all agree to get behind a White Supremacist misogynist leader.

Sorry people of color and women... For unity, we have to all abandon our conscience. You know... for the betterment of the country.

originally posted by: spiritualzombie
Olive branches are an act of conscience. Trump supporters reject conscience. No sign of that changing, so what's Plan B?

It sounds like you're rejecting it amid a flurry of bigotry.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: spiritualzombie
Olive branches are an act of conscience. Trump supporters reject conscience. No sign of that changing, so what's Plan B?

It sounds like you're rejecting it amid a flurry of bigotry.

I'm saying an olive branch is a meaningless gesture to people who reject conscience. They're too rigid. Actual Nazis would have a better time finding commonality. But because of the Xenophobia, they'd have to be American Nazis. As proof, American Nazis have found common ground with Trump Supporters.

I guess we can all agree to bury our conscience and get behind a leader who habitially uses childish insults, and also get behind hate and anger, and embrace some White Supremacists... then and only then could we find common ground -- but I guarantee it would be a raping of the soul every step of the way for anyone who values conscience.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

I'm saying an olive branch is a meaningless gesture to people who reject conscience. They're too rigid. Actual Nazis would have a better time finding commonality. But because of the Xenophobia, they'd have to be American Nazis. As proof, American Nazis have found common ground with Trump Supporters.

I guess we can all agree to bury our conscience and get behind a leader who habitially uses childish insults, and also get behind hate and anger, and embrace some White Supremacists... then and only then could we find common ground -- but I guarantee it would be a raping of the soul every step of the way for anyone who values conscience.

I'm not sure convicting people of thought and speech crimes and dehumanizing people for what they say and think is evidence of someone with a conscience. In fact I think its the exact opposite.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: spiritualzombie

I'm saying an olive branch is a meaningless gesture to people who reject conscience. They're too rigid. Actual Nazis would have a better time finding commonality. But because of the Xenophobia, they'd have to be American Nazis. As proof, American Nazis have found common ground with Trump Supporters.

I guess we can all agree to bury our conscience and get behind a leader who habitially uses childish insults, and also get behind hate and anger, and embrace some White Supremacists... then and only then could we find common ground -- but I guarantee it would be a raping of the soul every step of the way for anyone who values conscience.

I'm not sure convicting people of thought and speech crimes and dehumanizing people for what they say and think is evidence of someone with a conscience.

Actually, speaking out against that sh*t is exactly what it means to have a conscience.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

Actually, speaking out against that sh*t is exactly what it means to have a conscience.

Yelling a bunch of buzzwords and pejoratives against people because of what some say and think isn't the sign of a conscience, but the sign of someone who thinks in slogans and is a censor.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: spiritualzombie

Actually, speaking out against that sh*t is exactly what it means to have a conscience.

Yelling a bunch of buzzwords and pejoratives against people because of what some say and think isn't the sign of a conscience, but the sign of someone who thinks in slogans and is a censor.

You're using generalizations. "because of what some say and think" Get specific. And be honest. The only way to find common ground with Trump supporters is to reject conscience. Trump people boo at Cruz when he suggested voting with your conscience. They cheer for torture and walls. They're dividing their own party and rejecting the ones that call for conscience.

To get onboard with Trump supporters requires extremely rigid ideology and a total abandonment of conscience.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

I'm saying an olive branch is a meaningless gesture to people who reject conscience. They're too rigid.

So anyone who believes something different from you is "too rigid"? They "reject conscience"?

Conscience is following what one believes to be right from wrong... exactly what some people who disagree with you are doing. Failing to follow what they believe is right, in other words, simply blanketly agreeing with you, is the opposite of conscience.

Actual Nazis would have a better time finding commonality. But because of the Xenophobia, they'd have to be American Nazis. As proof, American Nazis have found common ground with Trump Supporters.

That's a lot of labeling you're throwing out there. What makes one a "Nazi"? An "American Nazi"? A "white supremacist"?

I guess we can all agree to bury our conscience and get behind a leader who habitially uses childish insults, and also get behind hate and anger, and embrace some White Supremacists...

Well, we have had leaders who used childish insults for quite some time. Do the words "racist," "xenophobic," "sexist," or the infamous "deplorable" ring a bell?

I'm curious as to which "white supremacists" we are supposed to embrace... care to name some names and explain what makes them a "white supremacist"?

...then and only then could we find common ground -- but I guarantee it would be a raping of the soul every step of the way for anyone who values conscience.

No, that would be surrender, not cooperation. The whole concept of "common ground" is an area that both parties to the debate can agree on. For instance, you seem to think (if I am reading your post correctly) that Donald Trump's frequent tweets are sometimes childish. I agree, sometimes they are. That's common ground - something we can both agree on in principle.

Now, as to whether those childish tweets are god or bad in our present condition and to what extent... we might have to debate that.

In essence, your entire statement seems to me to come down to a simple concept:

I'm right, and anyone who doesn't agree with me is obviously wrong.Therefore anything I say or do against those who disagree with me is fine, but anything they say or do against me is inherently wrong and a perfect excuse for me to escalate my rhetoric.

That's a long way from someone following a conscience.

TheRedneck

a reply to: spiritualzombie

You're using generalizations. "because of what some say and think" Get specific. And be honest. The only way to find common ground with Trump supporters is to reject conscience. Trump people boo at Cruz when he suggested voting with your conscience. They cheer for torture and walls. They're eating their own republicans.

To get onboard with Trump supporters requires extremely rigid ideology and a total abandonment of conscience.

For instance "a leader who habitially [sic] uses childish insults" and "get behind hate and anger", and "embrace some White Supremacists", "they cheer for torture and walls". Cheering? Booing? "Getting behind" someone? If those are signs of people without a conscience, then I'm sorry, you have no clue what conscience is, and you're dehumanizing fellow citizens because you do not like what they say and think.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: spiritualzombie

I'm saying an olive branch is a meaningless gesture to people who reject conscience. They're too rigid.

So anyone who believes something different from you is "too rigid"? They "reject conscience"?

This ambiguous defense used over and over. Get specific.

the definition of conscience is: an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.

Stop hiding behind the vagueries of "thinking different".

To get on board with Trump supporters means ignoring the childish insults, the attacks on the media, the attacks on all people who criticize him-- It means turning off your conscience or turning off your brain or both.

ISIS thinks different. Hitler thought different. Serial Killers think different. Get specific and stop hiding behind these vague generalizations.

World Wars are fought between people who think different.

Listen to your "conscience" and right vs wrong becomes a little more clear.

Supporting Trump requires an abandonment of conscience.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

ISIS thinks different. Hitler thought different. Serial Killers think different. Get specific and stop hiding behind these vague generalizations.

World Wars are fought between people who think different.

Enter the "conscience" and right vs wrong becomes a little more clear.

Conscience is about behavior, right and wrong. Hitler and ISIS also dehumanized people they disagreed with.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: spiritualzombie

ISIS thinks different. Hitler thought different. Serial Killers think different. Get specific and stop hiding behind these vague generalizations.

World Wars are fought between people who think different.

Enter the "conscience" and right vs wrong becomes a little more clear.

Conscience is about behavior, right and wrong. Hitler and ISIS also dehumanized people they disagreed with.

Hitler and ISIS are examples of ignoring conscience. Do we not dehumanize ISIS? And they deserve it for being hateful sh*ts.

Again, conscience and a good moral compass help lead people on the right path. To support Trump requires an abandonment of that.

Here's an example of the rigid ideology... There is no middle ground for Trump supporters. You're either ALL in, regardless of Trump's behavior, regardless of his insults, regardless of his childishness-- you have to be ALL in or you're the enemy. Olive branches are rejected and booed.

originally posted by: 3daysgone

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I find the division is a necessary component of disseminating angles and ideas. We should all look for the good in it and embrace it instead of running from it.

Yes that is true, but when the division is leading us nowhere, what is the answer then?

I'm jumping right in without reading further

I agree with LesMis, I think the "division" (perhaps better called "competition) is a good thing. The problem comes in with the approach. Its really easy to lay blame on everything from individuals, to the "other side," to groups like Congress. But, I feel the issue lies deeper: in the society and system that birthed them in the first place.

I'd guess we have all experienced different types of competition. For ease of communication, I like to differentiate between destructive competition and constructive competition.

In the former, the goal is solely to "win," regardless of any cost. Cutting someone else off at the knees to appear taller ourselves is the name of the game, and this pretty much describes the vast majority of interactions.

The latter, constructive competition, is used as a tool for the parties involved to use each other to reach higher heights. The goal here is to become "better," whether that is personal growth or even something like a technology race. The end result is that ideally, all involved parties are more capable, knowledgeable, etc. when all is said and done.

A potentiating factor is that many like to believe they are participating in constructive interactions simply because they don't want to believe otherwise.

We are talking about issues here that have been front and center for literally thousands of years. I'm not even remotely convinced of the notion that different people will all of a sudden change everything for the better, forever and ever. It never has, as we continue to sing the exact same Cultural Story.

Find yourself an Olive Branch that removes your own soul and MAYBE if you get on board entirely and reject facts and reject decency, maybe you can find common ground with Trump supporters... but if you're looking for a leader we can all agree on, don't expect Trump supporters to bend... which means you'll have to ignore your conscience and find someone who's full of sh*t and spewing hate.

Like for instance a Richard Spencer is someone they haven't expressed a problem with. Or a Steve Bannon... Can we all live with a White Supremacists American Nazi leader? Because if you're going to extend an Olive Branch you gotta follow it up with a total rape of your soul.

Let's see if we can.... Repeat after me... if you have money, you can grab women by the p*ssy. And POWs... we like guys who don't get caught. And we can all admit Ted Cruz's wife is an ugly wh*re and Ted Cruz's dad killed JFK. And if that guy doesn't endorse Trump and instead says vote your conscience-- F*ck him, right? If you can agree with all that... you're on your way to being a Trump supporter.