WAR: New Allegations of US Torture

as posted by AlwaysLearning
...when the middle east sees such treament of their fellow citizens, guilty or innocent...is it supposed to give them the warm fuzzies and make they grateful to the U.S.?

And I supoose that watching daily suicide bombings against innocents or involving innocents and those numerous beheadings of innocents are supposed to give and maintain those warm fuzzy feelings, also?

Unless your logic is impaired I think not.

You said it, not me.




seekerof

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning

Originally posted by lmgnyc
...Arar is a Canadian citizen that was picked up by the CIA as he switched planes returning from vacation with his family at JFK airport. He was then was sent to Syria on orders from the U.S., where he was brutally tortured for a year, but never charged with anything....-snip-

Excellent post Imgnyc! If you are interested in following the Canadian public inquiry into what happened go to this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


You know, at the end of the day, say what you will about Saddam, say what you will about the terrorists (who are guilty until proven innocent so it seems)... to me the U.S. was supposed to set the example. Instead it is the worst offender. This beacon of human rights...is the biggest bully around. My question to all of you who think this is okay in the name of fighting the WOT...when the middle east sees such treament of their fellow citizens, guilty or innocent...is it supposed to give them the warm fuzzies and make they grateful to the U.S.?

Unless your logic is impaired I think not.

Good post Always.

US foreign policy is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do."

...It doesn't work.



,

Originally posted by Seekerof
And I supoose that watching daily suicide bombings against innocents or involving innocents and those numerous beheadings of innocents are supposed to give and maintain those warm fuzzy feelings, also?

So other than putting Americans, the supposed champions of Democracy, on the same level as terrorists, what is this torture yielding us?

Torturing prisoners does not yield information that can be used in any court, tortured prisoners cannot testify in court, and it is rare that information that is learned through torture is accurate.

So are we torturing terrorists out of revenge or punishment?

But more importantly, shouldn't these people be convicted of their crimes before being subjected to punishment? Torturing them will ensure that they won't be--it will also ensure that any information retrieved from them is tainted.

Doesn't it bother you that innocent people have been brutally tortured at the hands of your government--and that the government has basically free reign to pull anyone off the street and subject them to torture if they are labeled a terrorist (even U.S. citizens)? You had better hope that you never worked with anyone that knew someone that might have been involved with terrorism, or you might find yourself on a flight to Syria one day.

Democratic ideals of innocent until proven guilty and due process have been completely disregarded, and because of this, innocent people have been tortured--didn't Saddam Hussein also torture innocent people? Is it justifiable to torture innocents because the U.S. government is the perpetrator?

There have been hundreds of people that were detained at Guantanamo Bay and released because they were innocent. Is it morally justifiable to torture these people even though they haven't been convicted of any crime?

The concept of protection from unlawful search and seizure is one of the founding principles in the Constitution--the Fourth Amendment. How can anyone believe in Democracy, yet approve of tactics that invalidate this moral right--regardless of the nationality of the person in question? If Democratic principles do not apply to all innocent people, then the Bush administration's global crusade to "protect the weak" with Democracy is just a mockery.

Originally posted by soficrow
...That is exactly what the terrorists are saying. ...They are also saying that if the US won't follow the rules and renew and sign international conventions - then they, too, refuse to be bound by the constraints.

What makes you think they were going to sign Geneva Convention? They do not wear a uniform or fight for a country . They do not represent no country, no uniform, nor have intention of follow rules, or constraint themselves from creating more problems like beheading people. I would have to disagree with this point.

Originally posted by Goldenshellback

Originally posted by soficrow
...That is exactly what the terrorists are saying. ...They are also saying that if the US won't follow the rules and renew and sign international conventions - then they, too, refuse to be bound by the constraints.

What makes you think they were going to sign Geneva Convention? They do not wear a uniform or fight for a country . They do not represent no country, no uniform, nor have intention of follow rules, or constraint themselves from creating more problems like beheading people. I would have to disagree with this point.

Sorry - couldn't find my original post. But I still have questions...


If we don't respect the law, then are we helping to destroy it? ...If we bypass laws or ignore them, then we are removing legal protections for ourselves too?

What would the world be like if we didn't have laws? ...Would we go back to "might equals right" where everyone is controlled by lords, landlords and evil kings?



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Originally posted by FlyersFan
(...)
I don't care. I don't care and I'm sure I'll get flamed for
that but tough. The terrorists are trying to kill us and
destroy America. If they die then it's one less terrorist in
the world. War is brutal. They shouldn't have started it
and they shouldn't have joined the terrorists if they
couldn't handle the heat.

Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11. And whatever terrorism you have today in Iraq is called resistence to fight an oppressing power or terrorist power which is ourselves.

What I see is just greed for oil, war crimes killing 100s of thousands innocent peoples and torture. This is really sad.

Originally posted by WisdomMaster

Originally posted by FlyersFan
(...)
I don't care. I don't care and I'm sure I'll get flamed for
that but tough. The terrorists are trying to kill us and
destroy America. If they die then it's one less terrorist in
the world. War is brutal. They shouldn't have started it
and they shouldn't have joined the terrorists if they
couldn't handle the heat.

Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11. And whatever terrorism you have today in Iraq is called resistence to fight an oppressing power or terrorist power which is ourselves.

Good point WisdomMaster. ...Can't believe I missed it. Thanks.


...It's true. Iraq did not start this war at all. The US attacked Iraq without provocation, in a "pre-emptive strike." The "reasons" have changed and evolved... the US first said al Queda was in Iraq, then that Iraq had WMD's, and who remembers now how it all happened... ?

And agreed. the 'terrorists' in Iraq are there now because Iraq is occupied by the USA. Fertile ground.

What I see is just greed for oil, war crimes killing 100s of thousands innocent peoples and torture. This is really sad.

.

It's true. Iraq did not start this war at all. The US attacked Iraq without provocation

The US did not strike at Iraq for nothing. Iraq is a known terrorist nation, and it was proven that Saddam was the major funder of 9/11. Not to mention he was murdering his own people. I think a little torture should be in line for him as well. If they are known terrorists that we have captured, I say torture them all they want.

Originally posted by deesw

It's true. Iraq did not start this war at all. The US attacked Iraq without provocation

The US did not strike at Iraq for nothing. Iraq is a known terrorist nation, and it was proven that Saddam was the major funder of 9/11. Not to mention he was murdering his own people. I think a little torture should be in line for him as well. If they are known terrorists that we have captured, I say torture them all they want.

deesw - Even Bush and his administration described the war on Iraq as a preemptive strike.

By your rationale, the US is free to attack any nation in the world that thinks or acts differently than we do, or who we think might possibly maybe sometime or somewhere down the road do something to bother us.

...Is that really a responsible argument? Is it really good foreign policy?



.

Iraq is not just another nation that doesn't think as we do. It is a known terrorist nation, along with North Korea, and Iran, and Pakistan. It's about time someone showed them that the world will no longer stand for their terrorist tactics.

Originally posted by deesw
Iraq is not just another nation that doesn't think as we do. It is a known terrorist nation, along with North Korea, and Iran, and Pakistan. It's about time someone showed them that the world will no longer stand for their terrorist tactics.

Did you know that's exactly what many people are saying about US foreign policy?


....Where do you think it will lead if everyone keeps accusing each other of the same sins - and lashing out, instead of finding some other way to resolve their conflicts?



.

Another poor soul that believes the lies of the administration.

Iraq was not a terrorist nation, the only terrorist was Saddam and his target was his own people.

US invaded Iraq in false pretenses.

Get it.

Even the Bush administration has admitted that the reason for invading Iraq were faulty and not really clear, not MWD's.

Now get the facts straight and please deny Ignorance.

We attacked Afghanistan because Al-qaida and Taliban links to terror and the 9/11 not Iraq.

Originally posted by marg6043
Another poor soul that believes the lies of the administration.

Iraq was not a terrorist nation, the only terrorist was Saddam and his target was his own people.

US invaded Iraq in false pretenses.

Get it.

Touche...

Iraq is the hot bed to gather as many terrorists as they can to kill em all, at the same time making a deal with Iraqi's letting them know they will liberate them if they can use their land to kill as many of those guys as they can...

A nice trade off for both Iraqi's and the world...

Get it?

Even the Bush administration has admitted that the reason for invading Iraq were faulty and not really clear, not MWD's.

Now get the facts straight and please deny Ignorance.

The reasons couldn't be let out at that time was because the terrorists would of never came, but rather remained in their secret cells throughout the world plotting attack after attack...
And it's WMD not MWD... And they did exist do some research, get the facts straight and please deny ignorance...

We attacked Afghanistan because Al-qaida and Taliban links to terror and the 9/11 not Iraq.

Ummm.. do some homework...

[edit on 12-2-2005 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by TrueLies

We attacked Afghanistan because Al-qaida and Taliban links to terror and the 9/11 not Iraq.

Ummm.. do some homework...

Or you could prove him wrong.

Hey I am following the trues as to the media and known news, any conspiracy that I may believe in or not I had to leave it out for now.

I don't believe on any of the bs out there but hey most americans do.

I do agree with you Truelies



[edit on 12-2-2005 by marg6043]

Seekerof - Oh, I'm sorry, I thought America was to be so much better than those who would commit the terrible acts you speak of. After all, western democracy, so free, so concerned with human rights worldwide. You would think they set the example, but no they're worse.

And its a vicious circle from where I'm sitting. One good turn deserves another? At this rate America will never win the hearts and minds of those people. You believe what you want, but wrong is wrong. And what America is doing (and obviously encouraging the other coalition partners to do as well) at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib will never be right in my eyes nor the eyes of the world.





[edit on 12/2/05 by AlwaysLearning]

[edit on 12/2/05 by AlwaysLearning]

"Torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture."-- President George W. Bush, quoted in the New York Times, January 28th, 2005

Not only does this man have serious problems with grammar, he is a liar. Rendition of foreigners suspects to Egypt, Jordan, Thailand, Cuba--all known for torture tactics, are a matter of record. Either he is a moron or he thinks we are. Despicable.

It is naive to think that if we just "rally around the president" we will be supporting our troops and fighting for democracy when the president represents the exact opposite of this cause and blatantly lies to the American people. Wake up to what is really going on in this country....

www.newyorker.com...
www.nytimes.com...

US attacks Iraq and and says these people are evil, they kill and torture innocent people, they're terrorists. Then reports come out that the US is torturing people that has not been proven to be guilty to anything. Now when another country does this its apperently reason to go to war for, but when the US is tortureing people its fine. "That guy got what he deserved". What if he was inocent, he was just a family man that happend to live in Iraq and you warmongers don't think this is wrong.

Bush said he was going to liberate Iraq seems to me like all he did was to switch name on the guy who is ordering the torture Saddam/Bush. If Bush is going to spread democracy the first thing would to upphold the standards of the west world, the geneva convention, human rights etc.

And to say we didn't break any laws because we hired mercs, well if you hire a guy to kill someone for you, guess what your still guilty...

This hole thing is just disgusting

Edit:spelling

[edit on 12-2-2005 by The Todd]

Originally posted by marg6043
Another poor soul that believes the lies of the administration.

Iraq was not a terrorist nation, the only terrorist was Saddam and his target was his own people.

US invaded Iraq in false pretenses.

Get it.
................

Another poor soul?.... and you are here to save the poor soul.

Marg, you are still ignoring the evidence coming from places like Spain of all places where investigators have found links between Iraq and Al Qaeda.... Yes, do deny ignorance please... I have posted those articles three times at least......but I see that you like to ignore when evidence doesn't bash and blame the US government....

I could not find the original link to the Madrid story, it has been almost a year since this story developed in Spain. I did find the following link and excerpt at an archive.

An alleged terrorist accused of helping the Sept. 11 conspirators was invited to a party by the Iraqi ambassador to Spain under his al-Qaida pseudonym, according to documents seized by Spanish investigators and turned over to U.S. authorities, the London Observer reports.

Yusuf Galan, who was photographed being trained at a camp run by Osama bin Laden, is now in jail, awaiting trial in Madrid. The indictment against him, drawn up by investigating judge Baltasar Garzon, claims he was "directly involved with the preparation and carrying out of the attacks ... by the suicide pilots on 11 September."

Evidence of Galan's links with Iraqi government officials came to light only recently, as investigators pored through more than 40,000 pages of documents seized in raids at the homes of Galan and seven alleged co-conspirators. The Spanish authorities have supplied copies to lawyers in America, and this week the documents will form part of a dossier to be filed in a federal court in Washington, claiming damages of approximately $100 billion on behalf of more than 2,500 Sept. 11 victims, according to the Observer report.

Excerpted from.
www.novogate.com...

i also found the following which is very interesting.

This is to serve as a semi-chronological guide to Iraq?s sponsorship of terrorism throughout the years beginning with 1990. I personally have not taken a firm position as to if Saddam personally supported any anti-American terrorist attack, but the information is presented here for you to make up your mind. Some may say that Wahhabists like Bin Laden, Shiites like the Iranians, and Sunnis like the Iraqis won?t work together do to theological differences. This argument has obviously been disproved, as today we see Saddam?s loyalists, Wahhabists and all sorts of terrorists today cooperating in the war against Coalition forces.

Excerpted from.
cshink.com...



I also guess there was at least one terrorist camp in Iraq, that we know of, which was for the sole recreation of Saddam... Salman Pak - Iraq's Own Terrorist Training Camp


Deny Ignorance...who would have thought it....

Here are some of the links, again...., that were found in Spain of Islamic extremists planning 9/11...

Spain Indicts Eight 9/11 Suspects

Madrid Suspect Linked To 9/11

Yes....Deny Ignorance Marg....



[edit on 12-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Just to pull everything back on topic:

This thread is about new allegations of US torture.


...many of the side issues are quite relevant, but there are plenty of threads here on ATS for debating the history of the various rationales used to justify the war on Iraq. For example here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Can we please keep this thread focused on torture issues?



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