WAR: New Allegations of US Torture

There are obviously some issues that need to be addressed here. First off, I dont think that anybody truly wants Saddam back in power. The thinking on this is , he is out, may as well keep him out. You know, its kind of like making the best out of a bad situation.

Secondly, Just because the terrorist and the insurgents (there IS a difference) Do inhumane acts, that does not make it OK for us to do them as well. We are Americans and should act as such. We are not Syrian, Saud, or Persian, or N. Korean. We are American and we are better than that. This is what it all comes down to.

Originally posted by soficrow
It's about respecting international laws, or not.
And if we don't, what are we left with?

According to the opening article the US hasn't broken
any laws. Even if this report turns out to be true,
the US uses private security groups and mercs which
don't have to follow the Geneva convention.

And to answer your question, what we have left is
the INSURGENTS and TERRORISTS who have NEVER
followed international law. They torture, gang rape,
and execute US soldiers all the time. Check Jessica
Lynchs medical report ... brutally gang raped. Her
comrades were executed. We all saw the bullet holes
in their foreheads.

I still don't care.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Even if this report turns out to be true,
the US uses private security groups and mercs which
don't have to follow the Geneva convention.

That is silly FF. IT is like you stabbing someone and saying You didnt do it, the knife did. The knife was used as an extension of your hand to facilitate your wishes. The same thing is going on with the Bush cabal and thier use of Mercs for torture.

Originally posted by skippytjc

Originally posted by soficrow
Hey guys - this is real stuff. It's not about left versus right, or Republicans and Democrats.

...It's about respecting international laws, or not. And if we don't, what are we left with?

...We are living in a new world, and most of what's happening is not talked about much in public.

...I think we need to catch up, and start talking. Fast.

I agree in regards to the seriousness of cover ups and such. The US's current administraion is bringing us down a very dark path. But as far as the torture itself is concerned, this is war and you need to do what you need to do. The enemy doesnt have kid gloves on, why should we?

So the questions is - do we need laws or not? ...Cuz if we don't follow the laws - no one else will either.

And don't forget, American citizens were among those tortured and possibly killed (can't get the details on that one yet).

Where does that leave us, exactly?


FYI - here's an interesting story, by way of background:

US Soldier Badly Beaten


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Originally posted by FlyersFan

According to the opening article the US hasn't broken
any laws. Even if this report turns out to be true,
the US uses private security groups and mercs which
don't have to follow the Geneva convention.

Again, why are you mad these people are using the same tactics we are using?
What happened to the "This is War... these things happen in wartime" mentality?

Oh that's right- when we torture/rape/etc it's ok because we were attacked on 9/11.

I swear, we're working oursevles into a corner here!

We have not done anything to set an example (and yes, we NEED to be setting the example for the international community! if we do not prove to be above these methods, then how exactly can we claim to be better than these terrorists?!), and it really angers me when all the arm chair generals get pissy when the people we are fighting turn around and give us a taste of our own medicine.

Thanks for the link soficorw.

Baker says he volunteered to put on an orange prison jumpsuit and portray an uncooperative detainee in a training drill. But the five-man MP "immediate response force" sent in to extract him was not told of the exercise. According to Baker's lawyer, the soldiers were told that Baker was an unruly detainee who had been doused with pepper spray after assaulting a sergeant.

Four MPs slammed Baker to the floor, he says, then choked him and pounded his head at least three times against the floor. Gasping for breath, he managed to spit out a code word — "red" — and to croak: "I'm a U.S. soldier! I'm a U.S. soldier!"

So it seems to me that the reaction to the detainees in Guantanamo was of brutal force without finding the facts, but this time is was an American soldier.




[edit on 11-2-2005 by marg6043]

how much you wanna bet this doesnt turn into a scandal and it disappears

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Originally posted by snotbooger

Originally posted by DrHoracid
He then revealed dozens of Polaroid pictures of beaten and dead Iraqis from the directorate's files.

I guess we have dozens of pictures of beaten and dead prisoners now. Does that make you feel better?

You miss the issue. There are thousands of dead tortured Iraqi's dating back decades under Saddam. Even if the 37 are real, and I doubt they are, SO WHAT. You want thousands more, you want to put Saddam back in power. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!

Saddam had years to amass the bodies, we're just getting started. The issue is not Saddam's headcount versus ours, it's the slowly emerging evidence that we have just as little respect for human lives.

If you hate MY country get the hell out..............

Right back atcha Hor. Don't let the door hit you.

Originally posted by snotbooger
The issue is not Saddam's headcount versus ours, it's the slowly emerging evidence that we have just as little respect for human lives.

Do we need laws or not? International laws protect civil liberties, and we have the Bill of Rights and the Constitution - but such laws are being ignored and dismantled globally AND here at home.

...Don't forget, American citizens were among those tortured and possibly killed (can't get the details on that one yet).

Where does that leave us, exactly? ...and where are we headed?



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Originally posted by soficrow

Where does that leave us, exactly? ...and where are we headed?

That leaves us exactly where the powers that be want us. In a complete state of anarchy.A society without laws. When lawlessness is the norm, restrictive control of the people by force is the result. We have laws in place that we as citizens are supposed to follow or we get put on the poop list. So where is the irony in this..........

Originally posted by Kidfinger
That is silly FF. IT is like you stabbing someone and saying You didnt do it, the knife did. The knife was used as an extension of your hand to facilitate your wishes. The same thing is going on with the Bush cabal and thier use of Mercs for torture.

No, it means that America hasn't broken any laws. That was the
issue I was responding to. The question was asked ... where does
that leave us. I said it leaves us with America not breaking any
laws because they use Mercs and Independent Groups, and it
leaves the terrorists continuing to break the laws as they always
have. And I gave the example of Jessica Lynch and her group -
she was gang raped, and many in her group were executed.
We all saw the single bullet holes through the foreheads.

Perhaps giving them back some of what they (the terrorists)
dish out will make them stop and think twice before attacking
Americans here in America. It certainly can't hurt. They already
hate us so why the hell not give it to them as they give it out.
Being nice gets us no where. These are terrorists, not
Sunday School teachers who J walked.

I still don't care.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
America hasn't broken any laws. ...The question was asked ... where does
that leave us. I said it leaves us with America not breaking any
laws because they use Mercs and Independent Groups, and it
leaves the terrorists continuing to break the laws as they always
have.

Perhaps giving them back some of what they (the terrorists)
dish out will make them stop and think twice before attacking
Americans here in America. It certainly can't hurt.

Flyers - Don't you think that if we bypass laws or ignore them, then we are removing legal protections for ourselves too? ...If we don't respect the law, then we are helping to destroy it.

What would the world be like if we didn't have laws? ...Would we go back to "might equals right" where everyone is controlled by lords, landlords and evil kings?


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Originally posted by FlyersFan
People actually died? Well, at least that's something
more substantial than calling dirty pictures taken by
a dozen or so National Guardsmen 'torture'.

I don't care. I don't care and I'm sure I'll get flamed for
that but tough. The terrorists are trying to kill us and
destroy America. If they die then it's one less terrorist in
the world. War is brutal. They shouldn't have started it
and they shouldn't have joined the terrorists if they
couldn't handle the heat.

I agree with you, I'm sorry but I feel nothing, they have tortured and killed our people and it doesn't get the attention but boy kill there people and everyone is outraged.....I think the best thing that could happen is to kick out the media.

Originally posted by soficrow
Flyers - Don't you think that if we bypass laws or ignore them, then we are removing legal protections for ourselves too? ...If we don't respect the law, then we are helping to destroy it.

I hear what you are saying ... but listen ... when Mercs and
Independent Groups are used NO LAWS HAVE BEEN BROKEN.
America has not ignored the laws. If we did, then we would
have been the ones doing the torturing. IF, and I repeat IF,
this story is true, then technically the law wasn't broken.

And since you asked my opinion, NO, I do not think we are
removing legal protection for ourselves... for two reasons -

1 - we haven't broken the law.
2 - the terrorists aren't following the laws anyways so
us using some muscle via a third party isn't going to
make them suddenly torture and kill our people. They
do it anyways.

It could, however, make them stop and think about setting
out on a terrorist mission against us. With the threat of
torture if they get caught ... they might not be so quick to
murder and rape our people (or the Iraqis for that matter).

when Mercs and Independent Groups are used NO LAWS HAVE BEEN BROKEN.

WRONG. The act of using Mercenaries and private organizations is itself a violation of the Geneva Convention.

-raven

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I said it leaves us with America not breaking any
laws because they use Mercs and Independent Groups, and it
leaves the terrorists continuing to break the laws as they always
have. ..................

You just contridicted yourself FF. I put the word that contridicts yourself in bold. If THEY are using someone else to achieve thier desired means, then THEY are still guilty. And we all know you dont care. You support Bush. That in itself says you dont realy care about America. Just the oil mongers and robber barons withing our government. The people who care about America and our way of life are fighting to keep the values and rights that make this country great. Unlike the ones who are attempting to take away our civil liberties and attempting to rewrite the constitution.

[edit on 2/11/05 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by raven2012

when Mercs and Independent Groups are used NO LAWS HAVE BEEN BROKEN.

WRONG. The act of using Mercenaries and private organizations is itself a violation of the Geneva Convention.

-raven

Excellent point Raven - do you have a link and a quote?


Not nitpicking, but we need it here...


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OK, going back to the original thread, yes from about 650 detainees, hundreds has been released because they had not links to terror cells and they were never charge with any wrongdoing.

Some of the detainees were also under age.

Now from the ones that has been released accounts of abuse has surface, now for the people that "has no feeling" about abuse of these people.

I may ask a question how do you feel if you get captured imprisoned and torture while knowing you are Innocent?

Pardon me if I feel nothing for any of you if that happend.

I want to see insurgents capture and behead one foreign contractor for every person who has died due to US torture during interrogation. Thats 37 so far then. The insurgents have a little work to do.

Originally posted by General Zapata
I want to see insurgents capture and behead one foreign contractor for every person who has died due to US torture during interrogation. Thats 37 so far then. The insurgents have a little work to do.

...Why don't we look at the legal measures that might work? ...I would like to help build a system that works for everyone...


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