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An odd question for all the anti NWO people

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posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 07:53 AM
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Okay this mainly goes out to all the people who insist that masons are a branch of the illuminati and NWO. Is that REALY such a bad thing? I mean I know darned good and well that they arent but if they were wouldnt you rather be on the side with power than the side being crushed? Just my own personal opinion here and I would like to hear some other opinions without any flames or snotty attitudes. Lets discuss this. I mean even winston learned to love big brother in the end.

And please lets leave religion out of this. That has been gone over a million times.




posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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If you are afraid of being crushed, then run and cling to them.

Your attitude is that might is right, and its not a new one.


You are equating secret societies to the same role UFOs and Aliens play in many people's lives, a group so obviously powerful, that we need to rely on them, and hope that they save us, instead of ruin us.

Well, any way, if you have been having these thoughts, don't think of yourself as weak-minded, know you are.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 12:18 PM
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Actualy akilles I am anything but weak minded. I never said those were my own personal feelings. im just playing devils advocate for lack of a better term. And i did ask in my original post that we keep this civilized. There is no need to attempt to insult me just because your post has no substance. Actualy now that I look at it I dont think you realy truely read the first post at all. Because I stated openly that I do not believe in the NWO in the first place so how can I be clinging to them and relying on them?



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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Sorry I guess I can't discuss this the only reason I beleave in the possiblity of the NWO is due to my faith.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by zombiemann

And please lets leave religion out of this. That has been gone over a million times.


If you really knew what the whole NWO/Illuminati conspiracy was about you would realize how truley ignorant you are. This WHOLE THING, the whole conspiracy is all about religion. If you cant see that, you are being mislead, misinformed and are totally blind.

The Illuminati/NWO, and anything else associated with "them" has been created by the force of evil to destroy our God given free will, and to destroy all religion in their path, specifically Christianity. Why? Because thats what this whole thing is about. Wether you can see it or not, wether you need evidence or not. Its clear as day.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Illuminous


If you really knew what the whole NWO/Illuminati conspiracy was about you would realize how truley ignorant you are. This WHOLE THING, the whole conspiracy is all about religion. If you cant see that, you are being mislead, misinformed and are totally blind.


This is a perfect example of ad hominem and, not only that, this type of view is extremely dangerous. "If you don't believe the stuff that I do, regardless of how ridiculous it sounds, you're a fool."

The conspiracy folks pretend that they have some sort of advanced knowledge on how things "really are", and the rest of us who don't bite are dupes.

I strongly suggest our readers to take a look at this website. It is written from a Christian perspective and demonstrates how Christianity and conspiracy theory are not compatible. Nevertheless, non-Christians will also find it enlightening, as it does an excellent job in pointing out the contradictions and fallacies in conspiracy theory.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 01:32 PM
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All I saw on that site was the same old generalization that as a person who believes something that OTHERS don't, you must be:
a) trying to manipulate them, for money.
b) do it to make yourself feel smart, and oh so good about yourself.

And they call this examining the 'fruits of the tree', hmmm... Then I saw why ML liked it so much, its got the good ol' elitism in it:
"(conspiracy theorists) as a rule, they are custodians, bus drivers, clerks..."

Right, its not the three most 'lowly' jobs in your eyes, and a horrible generalization....



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 01:37 PM
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I see that you've wasted no time attacking the authors of that site (Dean and Laura Vandruff) as "elitists" (which is hysterically funny in itself), but you've offered no rebuttal to them, only called them names.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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WEll I guess we CANT have this discusion without personal attacks. All I did was ask for a few opinions and ive been called weakminded and ignorant. ML I apreciate your effort at maintaining a level of civility but I think maybe its watsed effort.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by zombiemann
Okay this mainly goes out to all the people who insist that masons are a branch of the illuminati and NWO. Is that REALY such a bad thing? I mean I know darned good and well that they arent but if they were wouldnt you rather be on the side with power than the side being crushed? Just my own personal opinion here and I would like to hear some other opinions without any flames or snotty attitudes. Lets discuss this. I mean even winston learned to love big brother in the end.

And please lets leave religion out of this. That has been gone over a million times.


If you are talking about the NWO as we are then yes. you cant trust men, in an NWO there is no seperation of powers and nobody to resist them. even the US is not as invincible as a NWO would be.

and two, they're lying about it to drive us there. the ends do not justify the means. if the means in this case was so justifiable, they would not have to lie.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 04:29 PM
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Yeah, I did offer a rebuttal.

I said that once their claims are examined, they only call conspiracy theorists names, without disproving anything themselves!
Their advice is nothing more than telling you as much as looking into such things is un-Christian.

Is it because conspiracy theories have no "taboo" that they are so looked down upon? I examine history to see who benefits, and time and time again, the answer is there before you.

Why were the Knights Templar not taxed? Because they were repelling the imminent Arab invasion? Or because they had royal favor?

Those behind the scenes benefit.

People think when the Knights Templar was set up it was supposed to exist forever?

Remember, someone who claims to know something you don't, or is in opposition to your beliefs:a) is trying to manipulate you, for money.
b) does it to make themselves feel smart, and wallow in your denial of their 'claims'.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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I thought this has already has been discussed on another thread, the masons maybe with big brother but masons are not who we should be worried about!

Who you may ask? well the goverment for starters, sure we can vote but really who has the real power, the public I dont think so!

Theres more to the truth than masons. And there are more dangerous secert groups that need to be discussed. Me personally I say do what you thinks best, we all have to learn. But stay safe people.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 04:55 PM
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Hrm, I've never really thought of the masons as a branch of the Illumanti so much as a collection of slimy good ole boys with no tact. As for clinging to the side with more power I think its all a mind thing. Some people will always gravitate towards whoever seems more likely to be on the winning end, while others dont give 2 craps about it and will flip the bird to whoever they stand against irrregardless of being trampled over.

If the Masons are connected to the Illumaniti its through some blind link where they have no real knowledge from which information and such comes from; basically an unknowning and unsuspecting puppet who is being taken advantage of just like the rest of us.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 04:58 PM
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I will answer your question by an old Jesus parable: "Those who live by the sword will die by the sword" To choose the side that has "might" does not guarantee your security. Sure you can turn a blind eye to the atrocities of the NWO against people, for your own security. You might not even have a choice. I won't judge you for your choices, but as I will be on the opposite side, come rain or shine, I will consider you my enemy. Ask yourself, how long will you be safe? Can you trust your future in the hands of a corrupt, dangerous and evil regime that has deceived everyone for so long? How much will it take for such an entity to deceive you as well? Not much at all.

What we want is a progressive, positive and free society, in which such things cannot happen. Don't you want your children to be living in a free and positive society? By choosing "might" you are voting to deny them that future. In the end the meek will inherit the Earth.

[edit on 11-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
Yeah, I did offer a rebuttal.


No, you didn't. In fact, you ignored their entire argument.


I said that once their claims are examined, they only call conspiracy theorists names, without disproving anything themselves!


Unlike yourself, they didn't call anybody names. They simply pointed to the fact that conspiracy theory is unbiblical, and should be rejected by Christians. Furthermore, they also pointed out that those who pretend to have inside information on "what's going on" are almost always the least qualified, and that the roots of conspiracy theory lie in anti-Semitism and fraud.


Is it because conspiracy theories have no "taboo" that they are so looked down upon?


No, conspiracy theory is looked down upon for the reasons the Vandruffs gave on their website, namely, it's make believe, it's used by conspiracy theory inventors to brain wash people for profit and/or political power, and it demonizes innocent people.


Why were the Knights Templar not taxed? Because they were repelling the imminent Arab invasion? Or because they had royal favor?


I personally don't give a rat's rear end how the Templars were taxed.


People think when the Knights Templar was set up it was supposed to exist forever?


Who cares? The crusades ended a long time ago, kid, get with the program.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 12:25 AM
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Furthermore, they also pointed out that those who pretend to have inside information on "what's going on" are almost always the least qualified, and that the roots of conspiracy theory lie in anti-Semitism and fraud.

So a Conspiracy researcher selling his book, and Freemasonry selling degree packages...

One is financially motivated, and the other is merely covering its costs, am I correct?

If conspiracy theory is un-Christian, then what is conspiracy Fact? The Holiest of Holies?

What would be the number one thing religious people would look up on regarding the church, that this web site has interests in pretending doesn't exist? Religious child abuse.
If that ain't a conspiracy fact, what is.
I guess they don't want people getting the idea there is more to child abuse than just horny old men.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 01:20 AM
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Masonic Light:

Good day. Couple things. Perhaps just give it a rest against rookie posters or whatever you want to call them. You point out something like

ad hominen attacks
, and then you call that same poster "kid". Youre a hypocrite.


No, conspiracy theory is looked down upon for the reasons the Vandruffs gave on their website, namely, it's make believe, it's used by conspiracy theory inventors to brain wash people for profit and/or political power, and it demonizes innocent people.


So, do you concur with the Vandruffs? Because it appears as though you do.

Some direct questions:

(a) Do you think the US Government was involved in 9/11?
(b) How do you feel about the Patriot Act?
(c) What is your take on Gulf War Illness? (hutchison.senate.gov...)
(d) What about AIDS?
(e) Was Oswald the lone shooter?
(f) Do you see a police state approaching?
(g) What about MKULTRA?
(h) The Federal Reserve Bank of America?

Personally, I don't trust most people, specially the Government, as they have shown over and over their monsterous fist smashing (Peal Harbour, The bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, deadly experiments, etc.) This isn't about Masonary, its about whether you think this "process" that is so clear is clear in your eyes too: population reduction and a restructuring of Nations. I am not out to make any money and don't find much drama in any of this.

Look, as for population reduction, maybe they are right, I have said that before. However, I don't llike the idea of a bunch of suits deciding my future. You have to admit that the power structure is way out of hand in this world and Bankers have the most power, since they have the most money and leverage. Maybe you are pro NWO, and go for it, free country. However, what I am asking is, do you aknowledge such a group?



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by akilles
All I saw on that site was the same old generalization that as a person who believes something that OTHERS don't, you must be:
a) trying to manipulate them, for money.
b) do it to make yourself feel smart, and oh so good about yourself.

And they call this examining the 'fruits of the tree', hmmm... Then I saw why ML liked it so much, its got the good ol' elitism in it:
"(conspiracy theorists) as a rule, they are custodians, bus drivers, clerks..."

Right, its not the three most 'lowly' jobs in your eyes, and a horrible generalization....


I have my PhD in Physics, I am a Christian, and believe strongly in the NWO theory which is coming soon to a theatre near us.

So I suppose that blows the custodian, bus driver, clerk theory out of the water.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 05:18 PM
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My sentiments exactly. Anyway, it will be interesting to see if any of them respond to the questions I asked Masonic Light. But really, I don't care if they don't think a NWO is here, etc. As for me, I will fight them, with or without guys who belong to some club, no better than anybody else.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by freudling
You point out something like

ad hominen attacks
, and then you call that same poster "kid". Youre a hypocrite.


Since when is calling a kid "a kid" an ad hominem attack? If I call my computer screen a "computer screen", is that an ad hominem also?


So, do you concur with the Vandruffs? Because it appears as though you do.


I do not share their belief in fundamentalist Christianity, but yes, I agree with them that conspiracy theory is fallacious, unbiblical, and potentially extremely dangerous. Those who need proof of the dangers of conspiracy theory need only to take a look at those nations where conspiracy theorists gained political power, most notably Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Fascist Spain and Italy, and Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

Granted, the above were conspiracy theorists run amok, while most conspiracy theorists these days are relatively harmless. Nevertheless, the seed of hatred and persecution is still there. It is even evident in the posts of our resident conspiracy theorists on this very forum.


(a) Do you think the US Government was involved in 9/11?


Of course not. But I DO believe the Bush administration is still on the run in trying to cover up its blunders. The evidence given by former aides almost universally points to the same conclusion: the US government knew an attack was imminent, and practically ignored it.


(b) How do you feel about the Patriot Act?


I have previously called for the Act to be repealed by Congress, and continue to do so. However, if this is not done, I believe that the first time it is challenged in the Supreme Court, it will be declared unconstitutional, as it clearly is.


(c) What is your take on Gulf War Illness? (hutchison.senate.gov...)


Don't know much about it.


(d) What about AIDS?


I'm against it.


(e) Was Oswald the lone shooter?


Who knows? We know that Oswald was a Communist sympathizer, and the assasination was supposed to be in retaliation for the Bay of Pigs. On the other hand, it could have been a mob hit. Castro claimed that JFK put several hits on him, which all failed. This is possible, and it reinforces Kennedy's connection to organized crime. They may have decided to stab him in the back and take him out themselves.


(f) Do you see a police state approaching?


Yes, very slowly. I explained my view on this when we were discussing Plato. Basically, the average voter in the street has no idea what's best for him. He votes from emotion rather than reason. He's bombarded with propaganda about the so-called evils of gay marriage and stem cell research until he reaches the point where he'd vote for the devil himself, if only the devil promised him that when elected, he'd eliminate these imaginary evils. All the while, the voter is being played like a tool, and the devil increases in power.


You have to admit that the power structure is way out of hand in this world and Bankers have the most power, since they have the most money and leverage. Maybe you are pro NWO, and go for it, free country. However, what I am asking is, do you aknowledge such a group?


I would disagree that bankers have the most power; real power seems to lie with inherited wealth, which manipulates political power. These people seem to me have the most power and leverage.

I'm not "pro NWO", whatever that may really mean.



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