North Korea Says Diplomacy is Over - Nuclear War May Start at Any Moment.

a reply to: carewemust

China and Russia won't back NOKO if it decides to attack. That's why the U.S is waiting.

This potentially could start a bigger confrontation, China and Russia don't want a USPACOM invasion force on their flank.
NOKO probably isn't the real target here.
Strategically if the U.S invades China and Russia it'll be through multiple instant incursions stretching around Eurasia and down through South East Asia to Japan.

This invasion will be....putting another piece in place.

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: dianajune

To repeat myself:

If your neighbor said he was going to shoot you, does that give you the right to go to his house and shoot him first?

That question would have to include your neighbor constantly pointing a loaded gun at you, and occasionally firing a shot over your house to be a fair comparison.

If Kim Jong escalates to firing a shot over U.S. territory, he is TOAST. (Hopefully, just him..and whoever is close by.)

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: introvert
Let Kim do whatever he damn well pleases. He's only trying to put his country in a position to where they wont be messed with by the Western powers.

We don't need to take any action unless we have 100% certainty that they are going to act on their threats.

That's the way I feel too. From the restraint we've shown, I believe that President Trump and his generals feel the same way.

I wish Trump's language and rhetoric matched those feelings.

Then, Trump would be more like Obama. Hillary lost because she was too much like Obama. Trump is matching Kim Jong in the War of Words. That's his style. Not being a push-over is one reason why he was elected.

It's not a war of words Trump is fighting.

It's a game of who can thump their chest the loudest.

Trump should be adult enough not to play the game and be baited.

Obama was not baited. Hillary would not have been baited.

But Trump can't control himself from indulging in the playground antics.

a reply to: Liquesence

Just curious (and hate to be OT), but since you kind of brought it up:

Do you think your driveway is your property?
Your walkway leading to your porch?
Your porch?


Before one talks about being in public, one should recognize public places.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: carewemust

That's why I augmented the O.P. with a Fox News report as well.

Because Fox is "real" news?

Fox News cited the name of the Ambassador who stated that Nuclear War could occur at any moment now.

That's WAY MORE CREDIBLE than the CNN story which cited "anonymous sources", in its typical Fake News style.

Simply naming a source does not indicate credibility, since media typically protect sources when needed.

But yet you cited CNN.

a reply to: carewemust


Call the bluff.

He fires we will unload WWIII will begin and we will get the early advantage. TO hell with this groveling in front of 2nd class world citizen tyrant trash.

originally posted by: DexterRiley

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: dianajune

To repeat myself:

If your neighbor said he was going to shoot you, does that give you the right to go to his house and shoot him first?

If I can add a few additional parameters to your scenario:
1. He's been walking around in his yard shooting at random things with a shotgun.
2. You know he's paranoid, and not really completely sane.
3. You're standing directly across the fence from him.
4. He's pointing his shotgun at you.

I would probably try to shoot him first. Unfortunately, I would probably get hit by some buckshot myself.

Having said that, I'm not advocating for any kind of preemptive action against NK. This is a horrible situation that should never have been allowed to get this far.

China and Russia have NK right on their borders. They really need to take the lead in this. Any kind of nuclear explosion on the Korean Peninsula is going to negatively affect them. And given Lil' Rocket Man's instability, they can't be sure that at some point he won't turn on them.

-dex



-dex

To sum it up
1) If he says he is going to shoot you , no . If the weapon is pointed at you(or is in the process) , yes - dont wait
2) If he says he is going to kill you , yes - dont wait
3) If it is a stand your ground state - yes - dont wait
That is the law .
Now , apply that to NK...

a reply to: johnjohn808

How long was your sentence for aggravated battery?

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: introvert
Let Kim do whatever he damn well pleases. He's only trying to put his country in a position to where they wont be messed with by the Western powers.

We don't need to take any action unless we have 100% certainty that they are going to act on their threats.

What would you describe as 100% certainly. What would your redline be?

That is a hard line to draw as I am not in a position to know their exact capabilities and intent.

Speak in non tech terms.

Do you strike when: a. They demonstrate nuclear capability. Or b. When the missiles are ready to launch and Kim say they will launch at any moment. Or c. When the missiles are in flight. Or d. Once they have landed and killed millions.

Hmmm

This is such a complicated issue that you cannot speak in "non tech" terms. There are many other nuances to this issue that could mean the difference between cautious patience and direct action.

I’m sorry but your response is just a cop out. You wouldn’t fire our missiles when NK strike American cities killing millions? Really. Glad that you are not running the show

originally posted by: 200Plus
a reply to: Liquesence

Just curious (and hate to be OT), but since you kind of brought it up:

Do you think your driveway is your property?
Your walkway leading to your porch?
Your porch?


Before one talks about being in public, one should recognize public places.

My driveway, walkway, porch are all legally my private property, yes.

a reply to: whywhynot

NK is threatening a lot of nations with violence.
It now has it's bulldozer.

a reply to: Liquesence

In your scenario he's right across the fence. NK is not right across the fence. SK is. Japan is. Etc.

That's true, but SK and Japan are our allies. We have a mutual defense treaty with them. And certainly any preemptive action would certainly require some amount of buy-in from them, if not their outright insistence.

So, in this modified thought-experiment, the crazy neighbor is not my direct neighbor, but my neighbor's neighbor.

-dex

originally posted by: EA006
a reply to: carewemust

China and Russia won't back NOKO if it decides to attack. That's why the U.S is waiting.

This potentially could start a bigger confrontation, China and Russia don't want a USPACOM invasion force on their flank.
NOKO probably isn't the real target here.
Strategically if the U.S invades China and Russia it'll be through multiple instant incursions stretching around Eurasia and down through South East Asia to Japan..

Well you can see it coming. Russia wants to invade Europa, China South and west, NK will leap south to tie up american forces and on it goes. Its coming.

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: introvert
Let Kim do whatever he damn well pleases. He's only trying to put his country in a position to where they wont be messed with by the Western powers.

We don't need to take any action unless we have 100% certainty that they are going to act on their threats.

What would you describe as 100% certainly. What would your redline be?

That is a hard line to draw as I am not in a position to know their exact capabilities and intent.

Speak in non tech terms.

Do you strike when: a. They demonstrate nuclear capability. Or b. When the missiles are ready to launch and Kim say they will launch at any moment. Or c. When the missiles are in flight. Or d. Once they have landed and killed millions.

Hmmm

This is such a complicated issue that you cannot speak in "non tech" terms. There are many other nuances to this issue that could mean the difference between cautious patience and direct action.

I’m sorry but your response is just a cop out. You wouldn’t fire our missiles when NK strike American cities killing millions? Really. Glad that you are not running the show

I did not say I would not act in such a case.

What I did say, in case you missed it, is that I would not boil the entire situation down to what was listed because it misses very important nuances that, while very minuscule in nature, could make a huge difference in how we act or react.

In other words, I will not be baited by the black and white situations many of you see and am willing to think about this well beyond the appeal to emotions you are using.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: 200Plus

originally posted by: In4ormant
foreplay is for the inexperienced.

The only question Trump should be asking at this hour is "which option saves the lives of the most Americans and our allies?".

That would be assassination. If there's a law against it, too bad. Doesn't guarantee that a war will be avoided, but it's a good start that may avoid one.

A generation of americans brought up without honor. Sponge weak. Your women act more like men than most men. Generation of really weak puzzies.

You might have a point there... Hillary is stronger than most men. (Mentally...not physically, by a long shot.)

If you’re a red belt, In Tsien Tao Chinese Kempo,

If you’re a red and black belt In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,

A red belt in the Japanese martial art of Judo

And a red and white belt in Okinawan Karate

Or a Black belt in Korean taekwondo,

A red belt in Seiki Juku Karate,

A red belt in Muay Thai martial arts--a 9th and 10th dan

A red belt in Vovinam, martial arts--master rank

American military power can be equated with all of these high degrees in martial arts

Whereas the lowly N Koreans can be equated to, at best, a Yellow belt in Karate.

How is it that the US with all that power cant find a way to peace?

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: introvert
Let Kim do whatever he damn well pleases. He's only trying to put his country in a position to where they wont be messed with by the Western powers.

We don't need to take any action unless we have 100% certainty that they are going to act on their threats.

What would you describe as 100% certainly. What would your redline be?

That is a hard line to draw as I am not in a position to know their exact capabilities and intent.

Speak in non tech terms.

Do you strike when: a. They demonstrate nuclear capability. Or b. When the missiles are ready to launch and Kim say they will launch at any moment. Or c. When the missiles are in flight. Or d. Once they have landed and killed millions.

Hmmm

This is such a complicated issue that you cannot speak in "non tech" terms. There are many other nuances to this issue that could mean the difference between cautious patience and direct action.

I’m sorry but your response is just a cop out. You wouldn’t fire our missiles when NK strike American cities killing millions? Really. Glad that you are not running the show

NOKO doesn't have that capability.
What would it say for U.S defences if they got a missile through?
Think of the ramifications of America's enemies knowing she was easily vulnerable to attack?

originally posted by: EA006
a reply to: carewemust

China and Russia won't back NOKO if it decides to attack. That's why the U.S is waiting.

Right..I pointed that out several pages back. CHINA has said it won't back NKorea if NKorea strikes first. Haven't seen that statement from Russia/Putin. Have you?

What we have here is two world leaders, each playing the old Nixonian "madman strategy" - letting it appear that you are unpredictable and temperamental, and then the other side is always on the back foot trying to guess what you'll do next.

In Nixon's case, it helped that he was smashed out of his head on booze and pills half the time. I don't know anything about Trump's recreational habits, but ISTR he's teetotal. Not sure about Kim either, but anyone who thinks he's some sort of lunatic hasn't been paying attention: Mad dictators don't last long. But ruthless ones do.

Whether this is a wise game for both, let alone either, of them to be playing, I don't know. So much of what they say is intended for their respective domestic media/propaganda purposes that any appearance of interaction between their comments is probably very misleading.

a reply to: DexterRiley

That's true, but SK and Japan are our allies. We have a mutual defense treaty with them.

Yes, so if Sk or Japan feel the need to protect themselves after an attack or aggression, we back/support them.

We don't do at it ourselves pre-emptively with no direct threat to us.

So, in this modified thought-experiment, the crazy neighbor is not my direct neighbor, but my neighbor's neighbor.

As I said here,

If your neighbor—or anyone for that matter

it matters not whether it's your physical neighbor or isn't. The principle is the same.