What really is the Middle Class Income?

a reply to: TrueBrit

Not true,I know many posers that have been doing this by getting loans,credit cards etc,always the new fancy car or boat,when the truth is told,they may appear one way,but quite the opposite,knew plenty who had to park their Porsche in different spots to avoid repo man,middle class means you can pay your bills and have money for savings

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: 19KTankCommander




I have learned over the years that it is not what you make, it is what you spend.

Exactly....and the reason to incorporate or at least an LLC.

Everything is a deduction. I make well over the middle income mark and still qualify for SNAP. Everything is reinvested into the business and I'm the business.

If you aren't interested in how the system works...don't whine. You can use the system just like the 1%..... google it.

originally posted by: ttobban
a reply to: 19KTankCommander

The real middle class income is 'knowledge by way of education'. By no means am I trying to insult anyone's intelligence... it's really an insult to the public education. All public schools should teach kids to save $5 a day, invest it in stable portfolio gains within the stock exchange, set and obtain financial goals, and learn money management before it becomes of the utmost importance of how a growing family learns finances.

The power of compounding interest is not taught to the public, therefore its up to the public to take the reigns of who these important information reaches and affects in our family futures. Simply put, saving $5 a day at age 18 can yield an easy $1 million dollars come retirement age... in a low risk option that is. Please, get your kids on this plan now, as it does way more than just set a good financial foundation for growing minds!!! Switching finances to work with the future in mind also opens up the channels of how finances are handled... moving beyond a month to month platform, while keeping decisions steadier as the long term goals are worked towards. It also yields the benefits of making one more likely to create a family with another that thinks/operates in the same financial ways.

Once people switch their mindsets from 'spending to save money' to 'saving to spend money later', we will see the separation of wealth gaps lessen. I say poor, because there is no more middle class... the separation of wealth is only growing and trending to continue on this path. Don't try to keep up with the Jones'... just make your family the Jones'!!!

www.mybudget360.com...

The 1% taking 20% of all American income is not by chance... it's by design. There is one thing I promise of these 1%ers... that is that 1%ers aren't taking the full 20% through a 9-5 job. Nope, the bulk of the financial gains come from what one does with their earnings to make financial gains. If one decides to take income from a 9-5 job only... then one will choosingly die a working man. The 1% make money while they sleep... on top of their fat incomes.

Best wishes to financial education and wealth gain for all!!!

LMAO, that's hilarious! You really think the public school system in the US would ever teach such a thing? The wretched Leftists in the schools teach them nothing except that the government and the whites owe them something. The only economics they learn is how to navigate the system to maximise the amount they can get of free stuff, then they're trotted off to the cafeteria for their free government lunch!

Face it, "Capitalism" is for the 1%.

For the rest, its subsistence living on what the government lets you keep if you're dumb enough to work. I know plenty of people where I live that make sure to never work more than 20 hours a week so they can continue to receive their Disability checks while shaking up with some broad on child support and food stamps. Left over money goes to booze at the bar and cigarettes and pot. And I'm talking plumbers, electricians, skilled laborers.

originally posted by: 19KTankCommander
I was reading the tax reform and it seem that those in Washington cant decided on what is middle class income or what can be considered middle class, I figured that most us on ATS can figure this one out for them.

Going of off myself, family of 4, We were struggling to make ends meet making just over $30K a year,(did not qualify for any help) but we managed, kids got old enough and wife went back to work,(it was cheaper for her to stay home instead of day care), with two incomes we were able to finally purchase a new vehicle, our 1991 was put to rest in 2012, vacations were going to grandma and grandpas or another relative.

But several years later, both kids graduated, one working full time and one we are helping put through college, he is doing his core classes locally to save on cost.

Last year we made just about 73K between the two of us and I can finally say we have more than two nickels to rub together at the end of the day, and actually have some money put away for emergencies, we are better of than we were but still watch what we are spending.

Looking around and seeing them discuss what is middle class, I think I fit the profile, we don't make over 100K per year don't have a 3000sq ft home and all the seasonal toys or take expensive vacations.

So I think if you make over 125k per year (dual income) your not middle class

It is all relative and there is no straight answer.

From a purely numerical standpoint, the middle class would probably be the middle 80% of wage earners. However, this isn't all that accurate because it also depends on geographical cost of living as well as the concentration of other like earners.

For example, as someone mentioned, making $125k in most big cities is not all that special and certainly doesn't make you upper class. You'd be considered middle class or at the cusp of upper middle class. However, if you are in an area with low cost of living, that is good money. Keep in mind, in areas like San Francisco, a starter home costs $1 million. You can't afford a $1 million home on $125k/yr so in that part of the country, you are definitely middle class.

The other thing is that income is only what you make in a given year, wealth is what really matters. Wealth is all of your assets. I know people who make $100k, but are worth $5 million. I also know people who make $500k but probably are only worth $250k.

My household income usually puts me in the top 1-2% of income earners, however, we certainly don't feel part of the 1%. To be in the 1% income wise, you only need to make about $400k nationally. However, in some cities, that income maybe only the top 20% of earners.

In my case, all it really means lifestyle wise is that we are funding our retirement and putting money away for kid's college. We don't have luxury cars, jewelry, etc. It just really means you can afford to do the things that are responsible financially. If our furnace breaks or we have some unexpected minor expense, it isn't a big deal. However, we still have to focus on saving and cannot spend frivolously.

IMHO, you aren't really making a ton of money where you kind of live like a rock star spending frivolously until you start crossing about a $1 million. Even then, you can quickly find yourself broke. See athletes and entertainers.

True wealth is when you have about $5 plus million liquid in the bank, imho. With fairly conservative investments, you could generate about $250k/yr in interest income / capital gains and live off that money. That is FU money for most people if you don't have an extravagant lifestyle.

I don't know anyone who has any retirement set aside, I had none we live in a place of seasonal work and most have zero extra. Taxes are really not right they won't even let you save your nickels and quarter and put them away. They tax "gratuities" before they are even made and even if they are not made by %.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

Do you live in a place where you can do communal buying and service bartering?

I hate Facebook, but it is a good tool for that. Where I live they have several Facebook pages for the local areas, were people post things that are free if you just pick them up, and you can do an ISO, and in search of, for local stores, services, skills and trades.

It is a way to save money and to sell or trade your skills. Sometimes you have to think outside the box, to get out of the box.

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
I don't know anyone who has any retirement set aside, I had none we live in a place of seasonal work and most have zero extra. Taxes are really not right they won't even let you save your nickels and quarter and put them away. They tax "gratuities" before they are even made and even if they are not made by %.

I've been saving for retirement since I started working full time at 22 out of college. Our finanical planner told us we'd need about $4 million saved for retirement. Taxes are a huge damper on being able to fund retirement and other expenses. I don't expect social security will be around for me in 25 years when I'm ready to retire, but the money I've contributed to the system is enormous.

The biggest mistake people make is that they don't start saving early enough. You have to do it religiously, no matter how small. Compounding interest and keeping your money in the market pays off. I kick myself because we weren't more aggressive investing in our 20s, but I just didn't know any better and kind of picked it up on my own. People who invested relatively small sums in companies like Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Home Depot, etc 20 years ago are millionaires now.

It is a shame that our public schools are not teaching personal finance in high school. This is one of systematic structural issues that the upper class has over the lower class. KNOWLEDGE.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: 19KTankCommander


It also depends on where you reside. $125,000 a year for two people in north Jersey isn't exactly wealthy with the cost of living and the property taxes we pay.

definitely depends.

if i made 125k a year i would feel wealthy. not rich but i would not have # to worry about financially.

originally posted by: TinySickTears
definitely depends.

if i made 125k a year i would feel wealthy. not rich but i would not have # to worry about financially.

If I ever decided to move from New Jersey and took my salary with me to say South Carolina or Tennessee it would be an entirely different story.

a reply to: 19KTankCommander

It doesn't matter what you pay in taxes. WHAT DOES MATTER IS THE PURCHASING POWER OF YOUR TAKE HOME PAY!

What difference does it make what we pay in taxes when the corporate cartels and monopolies destroy the free-markets with lobbyists forcing everyone to shop a the corporate company store with wages getting reduced to poverty wages through analytics?????????

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: 19KTankCommander

It doesn't matter what you pay in taxes. WHAT DOES MATTER IS THE PURCHASING POWER OF YOUR TAKE HOME PAY!

What difference does it make what we pay in taxes when the corporate cartels and monopolies destroy the free-markets with lobbyists forcing everyone to shop a the corporate company store with wages getting reduced to poverty wages through analytics?????????

Then it's time to take a walk on the wild side and start your own business or franchise.

America is still an entrepreneurial paradise. So far I have started 4 businesses and sold them to my employees once they were operating and making a profit.

It takes courage and it can go south muy rapido.... I lost everything in 08 and had to start from scratch.

Find your passion and monetize it!

Is that you Hillary??? What do you mean "what does it matter"??????
That is money earned by people through their own work, ideas, bargaining. You think the government deserves all they want as long as you can buy the new Play Station? They blow all our hard earned money transferring it around to their comrades and throwing a few scraps to the leaches for votes! a reply to: dfnj2015

originally posted by: 19KTankCommander
a reply to: 19KTankCommander

I guess we fully understand that there are a lot of variables involved here, but once again what should (dollar amount) be set for middle class, this is the problem they are seeking answers to.

The politicians in DC don't care about what debt we may have from home, school, medical ect, they want to set a dollar amount for tax reasons, I do agree that sure you may make $20 dollars an hour but at the end of the day you don't have anything left because of said reasons, and to make it worst they base everything of off Gross income instead of net, there is a big difference.

So again what really is the middle class 30-125K or 30- 220k (joint of course)

I'm not sure there is one dollar amount.

As people have already explained, where you tend to live in country can vary that amount wildly what is a decent living in one place is barely starvation wages in another thanks to cost of living differences. For us to enjoy the same standard of living we have here in Kansas City out in California, my husband would have to make about $30,000+/year more than he makes here. If we made that here, there would be no question that we were middle class here where we are now living at a lower middle class level.

Then there are spending and finance levels to consider.

Just because a family makes that magic dollar amount doesn't mean they enjoy all the benefits of it for various reasons. Debt will quickly wipe out the benefits of an increased salary and render what most would call a middle class salary a moot point.

Finally, there is what is considered "wealth."

Some people are called wealthy, but they don't have assets that translate easily into ready cash. My parents would be a good example. Sure they own land which makes them "wealthy," but the land does not readily translate into monthly income beyond the rents they collect once or twice a year. You can put a gross dollar amount on its value, sure, but they can't live like the rich folk that dollar amount seems to make than out as, and they are hardly unique.

I find it funny. Most if not all of you make three times more then me. You have that 50k so it makes you have to get a huge house and the nicest car like your neighbor Dave. With that. Your in depth to your eye balls...I don't get it. I make 12 and owe 3. Have a nice 93 ford that with a lot of love can have 500k miles before she blows.

Why live beyond your means. Makes no sense to me.

a reply to: 19KTankCommander

I think your estimate is really good.

Here's how I did a quick and dirty estimate based on the 2015 meidan household (4 persons) income of $56,000.

www.deptofnumbers.com...

The median income being that income (reported!!!!!) at which 1/2 the household are below it and half above it.

That number ($56,000) would be the apex of the bell curse.


The poverty threshold 2017 for a family of four is just under $25,000.

aspe.hhs.gov...

That would be the leftmost threshold of the bell.

To estimate the righthand threshold of the 'middle class' bell curve we add $31,000 (difference between median income and poverty limit income) bringing it to $87,000.00 in an absolute sense. As the real world doesn't work in an absolute sense I think your upper limit of $125,000.00 is extremely reasonable.

My limited understanding of the proposed 'tax roadmap' (it's not a detailed plan) is that those making under six figures and those making over six figures will receive a real tax cut (weighted heavy towards over six figures) and that those making five figures get thoroughly screwed. The higher 'personal deduction' being more then offset with disallowed deductions for those who itemize.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: 19KTankCommander




I have learned over the years that it is not what you make, it is what you spend.

Exactly....and the reason to incorporate or at least an LLC.

Everything is a deduction. I make well over the middle income mark and still qualify for SNAP. Everything is reinvested into the business and I'm the business.

If you aren't interested in how the system works...don't whine. You can use the system just like the 1%..... google it.

Ya LOL my little Tourist lodge almost never make money and every thing is 100% deductable
very big portion off my pay goes into DCRP and saving

originally posted by: Trillium

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: 19KTankCommander




I have learned over the years that it is not what you make, it is what you spend.

Exactly....and the reason to incorporate or at least an LLC.

Everything is a deduction. I make well over the middle income mark and still qualify for SNAP. Everything is reinvested into the business and I'm the business.

If you aren't interested in how the system works...don't whine. You can use the system just like the 1%..... google it.

Ya LOL my little Tourist lodge almost never make money and every thing is 100% deductable
very big portion off my pay goes into DCRP and saving

I don't know how it works in Canads but in the US there are plenty of venture capitalist willing to invest in a worthwhile project.

It helps to be reasonably articulate, know how to write a business plan and not sound like a total noob when meeting with the investors.

And there are plenty of privately funded Grants, low interest loans, endowments and fellowship for the savy entrepreneur to avail him/herself of if you have the drive and commitment to seek them out. Most people don't....satisfied to work for the man then whine when taken advantage of.

Once upon a time it was 70-100 thousand dollars... Not anymore. I know families making $80 thousand a year and struggling to make ends meet.