Congress warned North Korean EMP attack would kill '90% of all Americans'

a reply to: seasonal

my 2 cents on the North Korea crisis:

I strongly believe that nothing will change, for the next decades.

First of all, it would be in no one's interest to see a change:
. China wants to keep NK the way it is, as a buffer between itself and US soldiers (and also US ally South Korea).
. North Korea: the tensions and presence of archenemy US is a good excuse for KIm to have full power continue his dictatorship (even though there is good evidence that he is not the actual boss, that the actual decision makers are in the OGD, but that is for another thread/debate).
. South Korea: the threat of the NK neighbour is a good excuse to have all these US soldiers on their soil. Also to keep a form of control on their population (e.g. contacting a NK person, unauthorised by the government is punishable by death in SK):
. US: NK threat is a good excuse to keep US soldiers in SK and Japan, to continue selling lots of military "toys" to SK and Japan.
. Russia / China / SK: they get some dirt cheap manpower from NK

I believe NK first developed nuclear weapons, as several other countries, simply to have them.
Then they saw what happened to Saddam Hussein and Khadafi, and they understood that these toys would give them full "protection" (as in diplomatic protection, no one dares to attack them now) from western countries.

The Kim dynasty (especially Jong-il and Jong-un) are crazy, arrogant and every other negative trait you want to call them.
But they are not stupid. Jong-un knows that the instant he makes a move against US, his will be personally incinerated.

His movements make him feel powerful, make him exist on the international place, but he will not make a real move against US.
That would be suicide.

Then a big unknown is now part of the game: Trump.
That especially showed when Tillerson was in China, and Trump destroyed months of diplomatic work with a few tweets.
I do not want to turn this thread into a pro/anti Trump thread. But I think that should anything happen, that will be based on Trump's reactions, as he is most unpredictable and always reacting (instead of planning).

Description of High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse

HEMP is produced when a nuclear weapon is detonated high above the Earth’s surface, creating gamma-radiation that interacts with the atmosphere to create an intense electromagnetic energy field that is harmless to people as it radiates outward, but which can overload computer circuitry with effects similar to, but causing damage much more swiftly than a lightning strike.6 The effects of HEMP became fully known to the United States in 1962 during a high-altitude nuclear test (code named “Starfish Prime”) over the Pacific Ocean, when radio stations and electronic equipment were disrupted 800 miles away throughout Hawaii. The HEMP effect can span thousands of miles, depending on the altitude and the design and power of the nuclear burst (a single device detonated at an appropriate altitude over Kansas reportedly could affect all of the continental United States)7, and can be picked up by metallic conductors such as wires or power cables, acting as antennas to conduct the energy shockwave into the electronic systems of cars, airplanes, and communications equipment.

emphasis mine

CRS Report for Congress
Received through the CRS Web

High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (HEMP) and
High Power Microwave (HPM) Devices:
Threat Assessments

So, the fat troll needs two things; a nuclear device capable of gamma radiation and a means to get that to explode high in the atmosphere above the US.

As many have stated, it's not the effects from the EMP itself that will cause problems. It's the knock on effects later on down the line that will be at issue.

Generators only run for as long as you have fuel. If the power grid goes down and certain bits of equipment are fried, it'll be a very bad time for everyone as a prolonged nationwide power outage.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

Cars. Are actually pretty well used to EM radiation these days. they did testing a while back on modern vehicles. highly PC intensive ones had a issue,but with their built in power surge protection were easy to get back running with minimal effort compared to pre 90s vehicles. alot of those were fine with a battery change.

The EMP is not hard to do - the results can cause 90% die-off after 1-2 years for myriads of reasons.

Food chain,

No crops harvested nor planted and certainly no crops to market, distribution or processing on any scale that matters.

No transportation to grocery distribution warehouses, no transportation to individual grocery stores.

All that has to happen before groceries get delivered to stores.

All refrigerated or frozen distribution such as prepared meals and meat will rot in first week.

Most people have but 3 days of food on hand a few have more and very small percentage have more than months worth.

2 weeks to month into event population in general will suffer malnutrition and weaker will succumb to death. 1-6 months it will be the norm.

As food runs out peoples immune systems will weaken due starvation - sickness and malaise formerly non life threatening will become deadly.

Disease formerly thought to be only in third world will take hold as water supply and treatment will not exist and waste treatment halts. Refuse and trash not being picked up will just add to the problems.

Almost immediately those already on fringe of society will realize they have no limit on their actions days if not weeks ahead of any civilian resistance or organization against them - ever larger gangs will form as smaller groups are defeated and absorbed till some are like armies unto themselves controlling large areas and pillaging all surrounding territory - this aspect will make ISIS or Taliban seem mild in comparison.

So let's say you're a suburbanitem and have over a months food supply and stock of weapons - you're good to go right? Wrong, as your neighbors see you still fat n happy while they and children waste away those formerly friendly neighbors will scheme to kill you to make what's yours theirs.

After your neighbors you'll have local authorities wanting to collect "resources" for "fair" redistribution. Of course they'll tell everyone it's for good of all - if you refuse at best you'll be detained and your stuff taken - more likely you'll be eliminated.

a reply to: Phoenix

one additional point, I would expect ally countries (Europe, Canada, etc.) to help US, shipping food, vehicles, and other necessary items damaged during the EMP.
These countries could also take some US refugees if necessary.

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: jadedANDcynical

Cars. Are actually pretty well used to EM radiation these days. they did testing a while back on modern vehicles. highly PC intensive ones had a issue,but with their built in power surge protection were easy to get back running with minimal effort compared to pre 90s vehicles. alot of those were fine with a battery change.

From the Futurescience site linked earlier in the thread:

Tests done on 37 automobiles (that used electronic ignition systems) by the United States EMP Commission showed that all of the tested cars would still run after a simulated EMP, although most sustained some (mostly nuisance) electronic damage. Individuals associated with the EMP Commission have stated that their tests on vehicles were somewhat misleading since the EMP simulator pulses were started at low levels and repeated until the vehicle experienced some sort of electronic upset. After that point was reached, the vehicle was not tested at higher levels since the vehicles were borrowed, and the Commission was liable for any damage to the vehicles.So we don't know at what point the automobiles would have been permanently damaged.

emphasis mine

and

The EMP Commission tests were only on 1986 through 2002 model vehicles. Automobiles and trucks have become far more dependent upon sensitive electronics since 2002.

My daughter purchased one of those cheap Hyundai Veloster sports cars a couple of years ago. Made of mostly plastic and built around a computer. It wasn't all that great of a vehicle on a good day. I imagine its electronics would be fried like a strip of bacon in an EMP event.

The website also makes the point that even if only 10% of the vehicles were disabled, the traffic jams resulting from those few would be a disaster in and of itself.

-dex

a reply to: openminded2011

But would you rather fight this guy when he has a couple possible weapons, or when he has dozens?

I think it might be too late. I've read he has as many as 60 weapons now.

-dex

a reply to: fleabit

To this point U.S. and SK intelligence has grossly miscalculated NKs capabilities. Probably aided with the help of another country. Probably Russia. You must assume their accelerated advances will continue apace. You must also consider that whoever is helping them may try to goad them into attacking the United States. Someone is using NK as a weapon against the U.S. - and I don't think simply ignoring it is the right choice.

Finally the thought of sanctions. Harsh enough, over time they'd certainly have an affect, and would probably help. But the problem is that NK may be getting more than just asset and training help - they might be getting funds as well. In which case sanctions would have a drastically lessened effect.

It definitely seems to me that he has had a lot of help. I believe it's more likely that he got assistance from Iran. They signed off on the non-nuclear proliferation agreement with the US and just moved shop to NK. The Iranian leadership still hates the US quite passionately.

And because they were rewarded by receiving several billions of dollars by signing the agreement. I would wager some of that money went to Lil' Kimmie's Nuke program.

-dex

If that works... surely the west would have used it first on the North Koreans? It would not kill anybody but leave them more isolated than they are now?

originally posted by: tony12051973
If that works... surely the west would have used it first on the North Koreans? It would not kill anybody but leave them more isolated than they are now?

Sure it would - while they have less access to electrics and motorized luxuries, they still use it frequently enough. It would probably cause widespread devastation, and against the people we have no qualm with, the actual citizen of NK. And I think China would most certainly consider that an act of war, and would come to their defense.

I believe it's more likely that he got assistance from Iran. They signed off on the non-nuclear proliferation agreement with the US and just moved shop to NK. The Iranian leadership still hates the US quite passionately.

They have already tied purchases of rockets specifically for ICBMs to a Ukrainian factory that historically has ties with the Russian missile program. Ukraine denied this, and claimed they thought perhaps it was Russian selling the designs to NK. There is too much going on there to ignore. I think Russia "hates" the U.S. just as much, their leader is just a lot smarter about they go about dealing with the United States.

Iran perhaps could be involved, but I suspect Russia has the means to more capably giving support and technology.

People are in many ways overstating the effects of a NEMP. Many small electronics would likely survive, operational equipment at the time of the blast would be most at risk. There's a reason why much of the bigger heavy machinery used to hall stuff around the country is less sofisticated, much of that which transports goods and food would still on the whole be functional. The power grid, with its huge cables which act as conductors for the electromagnetic discharge is the week point and yes it would collapse (it is designed to do so and thus isolate damage to the surrounding network outside of the blast zones. Cables literally decouple themselves with explosive charges).

You'd be surprised what backup power systems can be put into use on short order to keep food distribution points running. There's warehouses stocked with megawatt diesel generators and fuel in all sorts of benign locations we never even hear about.

It's not going to be pretty by any means. Life will certainly be very different and I would prefer to be away from areas most at risk of the looters and rioters.

At the same time people aren't going to be sat in their homes twiddling their thumbs waiting for food parcels and wondering when they can go back to working at superhyperglobalmeganet. It's likely 90% of people will find themselves working for the Department of Agriculture.

a reply to: ObsidianEclipse

It's likely 90% of people will find themselves working for the Department of Agriculture.

Back in time. I wanna go back in time!

we would all have to live like the Amish and our forefathers ...
the only survival tip im going to give when you wake up and your toilet wont flush and your cell phone is dead and all the community is going mad over a glass of water and migrate to find water you have all the water you need even though the faucet wont work ......your hot water heater has fresh water and all your neighbors houses have hot water heaters so take time to collect your thoughts.....stay out of the herd there being led to slaughter....there's two ,I only was going to give one tip lol

a reply to: madenusa

your hot water heater has fresh water and all your neighbors houses have hot water heaters so take time to collect your thoughts

Why do you need to heat hot water?

a reply to: KarmaComa

And don't forget Mexico. They're one of our 3 biggest trading partners (along with China and Canada) & is our second largest import partner (meaning that China is the only country we import from more than Mexico). We already import a whopping 44% of our fruit & vegetable imports from Mexico, including 70% of our vegetable imports (HERE).

We also already import vehicles and vehicle parts from Mexico, all kinds of machinery, oil, and a bunch of other things from Mexico. In other words, the idea that we'd suddenly run out of supplies in some hypothetical EMP barrage is ridiculous. We'd just keep importing products like we already do, although at higher rates.

And that doesn't even touch on our mega-corporations that have offices, subsidiaries, and factories in other countries. Those companies would still be in working order and would a part of the repair work in the US.

And then there are the utility companies, Army Corp of Engineers, and contractors in the US. People act like all of those people would suddenly forget how to work on repairing any damaged parts in our power grids. lol Even if all of our manufacturers were somehow shut down after an EMP barrage (which won't happen), the utility companies & others who would do the repair work would still be able to get parts from Canada, Mexico, China, various European countries, etc. And then the groups I mentioned would begin the repair work.

I'd imagine that the major port cities and border cities would be the first to receive both foreign aid and imported machinery in this hypothetical disaster. This seems obvious, but people here seem to forget that at least 39% of the country's entire population lives in counties that are directly on the shore (HERE). Then you have the other cities that are close to our Mexican and Canadian borders, including places in the southwestern states of Texas, California, Arizona, and New Mexico, and our entire Northern border states. It would be easy to ship supplies across our northern and southern borders directly into those states. And it would be easy for Canada and Mexico to set up temporary refugee camps in their border states and border provinces to help fleeing Americans.

Even "our" major companies like Caterpillar and "our" major car companies have offices and factories in either Canada or Mexico (and sometimes, both). And I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg (as in, I haven't even gone into the major global construction firms and firms that get rebuilding contracts after other disasters). For all the talk about how bad the media is and how bad hollywood is, people sure seem to take their overly sensationalized scenarios to heart.

a reply to: Phagenot heat it drink from it the water faucet your costume to will have no water pressure people will leave looking for water

originally posted by: madenusa
a reply to: Phagenot heat it drink from it the water faucet your costume to will have no water pressure people will leave looking for water

90 percent have no clue how important it is until there water supply is cut off even red neck Billy bob says ill eat rabbit that rabbit only has 175 calories he will not want to get out of bed in a week your body requires at least 2000 cal to cut wood and do manual labor not at a desk

With modern technology its only a matter of time when a few cooks will be able to destroy a nation like the US.
Fools like Trump will never understand that. It leaves mankind no other alternative than to make peace his number one priority.

Yet Trump makes noise of war...

We are doomed because of this mentality.

we would certainly be living in a mid-1800s world for several days, if not weeks, with little knowledge of what was going on in the rest of the country and world, be prepared for an extended camping trip