Why can't America adopt a NHS type system ??

a reply to: seasonal

Our government is also going to collapse financially at the rate it is going, and when it does, everything it pays for that people depend on it to do for them will also collapse.

Just how much do you want it to do for you when that time comes?

We will already have a massive number of elderly people who will have no means of sustenance because they won't have social security as it is.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: ketsuko

Could it be that the cherry picked (horrible and disgraceful) stories are not the norm for the VA?

And there are very very good public schools and very very bad. It called parent involvement, something that no amount of $$$ can fix. And I totally agree it should not cost 12,000$$ to educate a K-12 student.

There are many many systems around the world that chug along just fine that are ranked better in both cost and quality than the US's.
Our system is going to collapse, and this happens when Joe and Jane 6pack look at their monthly mortgage and health insurance bills and decide they need a place to live more than shotty health care coverage.

My wife worked for a VA nursing home (2, actually). This most recent one sat on the campus of the VA hospital. Even with that, more often than not the residents were taken to the local hospital instead. Even the folks who work int he state run VA nursing homes prefer to not use them.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: seasonal

Our government is also going to collapse financially at the rate it is going, and when it does, everything it pays for that people depend on it to do for them will also collapse.

Just how much do you want it to do for you when that time comes?

We will already have a massive number of elderly people who will have no means of sustenance because they won't have social security as it is.

Take solace in knowing that the worst of it will be in cities where people have already been disarmed. The chance of survival for country folks goes up considerably.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Father-in-law avoids the VA whenever possible.

a reply to: LondonMan

There's an in between...life isn't just about the two extremes.

Gee whizz.

originally posted by: LondonMan
The NHS systems are 98.8% funded from general taxation and National Insurance contributions, plus small amounts from patient charges for some services. About 10% of GDP is spent on health and most is spent in the public sector. The money to pay for the NHS comes directly from taxation. The 2008/9 budget roughly equates to a contribution of £1,980 per person in the UK. What is stopping the USA from adopting a similar system. Everybody pays towards their health via a percentage of wage like UK National Insurance, then receives free health care when requested. Its very simple

While the US definitely has some issues, most of which are brought on by too much government regulation, we still generally have the best healthcare system in the world. Go look up cancer survival rates.

I think the NHS probably works well for people looking for routine care, but when the feces hits the oscillating instrument in regards to your health, you want to be in the US for healthcare.

Our insurance would be vastly cheaper if government got out of the way and let the market function normally.

Our healthcare system was messed up during WWII when government instituted wage controls and employers got around it by offering health coverage. As such, now all our insurance coverage is generally tied to an employer which hampers portability. In addition, there are a ton of other rules which reduce competition and price.

We know medical services can be cheaper. We see in health services where insurance generally doesn't cover procedures falling prices because Doctors are competing on price. I recently needed some minor skin treatment at my dermatologist... it cost all of $250 as it isn't covered by insurance. All manner of plastic surgery is getting cheaper all the time. I think women can get a nice set of boobs for about $5k. Lasik eye surgery. Dental stuff is cheap.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: LondonMan

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: DISRAELI

But we would drop:
-the monthly insurance cost
-the copays
-the every growing deductables
-the out of network costs
-the drug cost (should) go down

This is what I don't get, the UK government has us paying a percentage of our wages as our National Insurance 'contribution'. That entitles us to full health benefits, what is this deductible/copay nonsense.

When you buy an insurance policy, it usually comes with what is called a deductible that you have to pay out of pocket for some services. Generally, this amount renews itself at the start of every year. If you meet the deductible, then your insurance covers 100% of costs for you.

A copay is an amount you pay on some items and services. Generally, it is a percentage split. In most insurances or at least good ones, the copay counts toward deductible. The split will vary depending on the service you are using. A pharmacy copay might be $5 for drugs below a certain cost threshold and then bump up to $15 for drugs that go above that with insurance covering the rest. When our kid was in occupational therapy, the insurance was a 10%/90% split with them picking up 90% of the costs.

That's why you shop around and want someone who can really explain what you are buying to determine if it will meet your needs or not.

that is absolutely nuts...

originally posted by: LondonMan

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: LondonMan
Why can't America adopt a NHS type system ??

The short answer is that our federal government was not designed to have such authority over what should be a private industry.

Also, the 10th Amendment, IMO, verifies that it's something that the federal government doesn't have the authority to do.

Oh, and comparing a country with 20% of the population of another on something like this isn't an appropriate comparison, as it's not a direct comparison, and what works for one won't always work for another.

Plus, I don't want to rely on the federal government's ineptitude when it comes to my life.

you would rather just use some private doctor who will fleece you to death. gee whizz

I like how you ignore the whole constitutional angle and just focus on trying to get a potshot in because a 'Murican said something.

Not sure if you've been paying attention to current events over here on this side of the pond for the last several years, but you'll just have to suck it up and forgive those of us that don't place much faith in our government's ability to take care of us.

a reply to: ketsuko

I agree, the Federal Reserve was put in place to stop the boom and busts. What a load of sticking crap.

We need an asset backed currency to stabilize the dollar. Perhaps a fraction of an ounce of silver for every dollar?

This is going to end in a big fat war, and then we can rinse and repeat, maybe.

The reason we can't and won't have a NHS or a flat tax is the people who are making money do not want it. Imagine a huge Corp. (who are people) having to fork over 18% due to a flat tax-ain't going to happen.

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: LondonMan

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: LondonMan
Why can't America adopt a NHS type system ??

The short answer is that our federal government was not designed to have such authority over what should be a private industry.

Also, the 10th Amendment, IMO, verifies that it's something that the federal government doesn't have the authority to do.

Oh, and comparing a country with 20% of the population of another on something like this isn't an appropriate comparison, as it's not a direct comparison, and what works for one won't always work for another.

Plus, I don't want to rely on the federal government's ineptitude when it comes to my life.

you would rather just use some private doctor who will fleece you to death. gee whizz

I like how you ignore the whole constitutional angle and just focus on trying to get a potshot in because a 'Murican said something.

Not sure if you've been paying attention to current events over here on this side of the pond for the last several years, but you'll just have to suck it up and forgive those of us that don't place much faith in our government's ability to take care of us.

Not sure I understand what language you are writing in, old chap. I have no idea what a 'Murican' is, could you please enlighten me. Is this a joke that only you are privy to ?

a reply to: LondonMan

It's like you're trying to be witty, but your inability to engage in an actual discussion with anybody is sort of a giveaway that you're anything but.

Cheerio, old chap.

a reply to: LondonMan

No more nuts than your taxes are. I can't imagine paying both an income tax at the rates you do AND another tax called a VAT and then factoring in sales tax and other stuff for anything I might want to buy which is basically how you pay for your health care.

Just because you aren't pulling the cash out direct doesn't mean you aren't being milked for it just as hard as we are.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: LondonMan

It's like you're trying to be witty, but your inability to engage in an actual discussion with anybody is sort of a giveaway that you're anything but.

Cheerio, old chap.

I'm sure the idea of this post was to spark discussion to see if anyone will engage me with relevant information. I'm yet to see what you are bringing to the party, except for non English rambling.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: LondonMan

No more nuts than your taxes are. I can't imagine paying both an income tax at the rates you do AND another tax called a VAT and then factoring in sales tax and other stuff for anything I might want to buy which is basically how you pay for your health care.

Just because you aren't pulling the cash out direct doesn't mean you aren't being milked for it just as hard as we are.

VAT is added to goods and services at point of sale, so we over this side of the pond only see the sale price as VAT is included, on the other hand if you are self employed your have to keep your eyes on it when buying goods and doing taxes, as the taxman will chase you at t'end of year for his piece of flesh..

a reply to: LondonMan

Insurance companies, AMA (doctors), for profit hospitals, big pharma, etc. are all against it and therefore it will never pass because American politicians don't care about their constituencies just their corporate donors (overlords).

a reply to: TobyFlenderson

100% agree, and at some point the system will crash. Double digit increases (happening before ACA) can't continue especially when anyone can look around the world and see other countries doing medical systems better and for 1/2 the money.

originally posted by: LondonMan
I'm sure the idea of this post was to spark discussion to see if anyone will engage me with relevant information. I'm yet to see what you are bringing to the party, except for non English rambling.

Well, I engaged you with an intelligent response, and you dismissed it without even the slightest attempt to return the favor.

Then you want to bemoan Shamrock6 because he doesn't 'bring something to the party?'

Quit playing silly games--either engage and discuss, or stop pretending that you want to have an intelligent discussion. The choice is yours, obviously, but since you started this thread, it would seem like you should take the former approach and not the latter.

a reply to: TobyFlenderson

Yep.

Over the last two decades, the two biggest areas where money was spent lobbying?

Big pharma and insurance. Hospitals comes in 9th. Healthcare professionals comes in at 13th. Health Services & HMOs come in at 17th.

So five out of the top twenty biggest lobbying areas in the country are related to the medical field directly. Until that changes drastically, there's not going to be much else that changes.

a reply to: LondonMan

The problem as I see it is that the NHS was founded as a nationalised institute with funding mechanisms in place based on taxation of everybody through national insurance. Private systems such as BUPA and AXA PPP set up to offer supplementary care to those willing to pay and skip the queue.

Appears to be the opposite in the US with a privately owned system set up for those who can afford with the rest left to rot or offered the most rudimentary of care.

Ironically both systems appear to be drifting towards a mix of the 2 ideologies that works for nobody.

PFI is a disaster in the UK and is bankrupting trusts nationwide for the hospitals they couldn’t afford to build. In the US drug companies, privately owned hospitals and insurers are complicit in ripping off the population.

Big Pharma are responsible for the rise in premiums, there are so few “new big thing” drugs that make a huge difference to the general population and hence are successful and value for money. Too many drugs offer little benefit at extreme cost. Cancer drugs costing £50k for a course that may add a few months of extra agony. Dementia drugs that keep people alive with no memory of who and where they are whilst everything they have worked for is sold around them to pay for it.

The whole system is set up to take everything from everyone at huge profit and if you die thry’ll even sell what’s left of you for a profit to treat others.

Medical treatment is improving at an incredible rate if you can afford it, proton therapy, autologous drugs, gene therapy. Who can afford that, or even the insurance to pay for that.

Health is big business. Euthanasia for me if it comes to it.

Or am I just cynical....

a reply to: LondonMan

You've been engaged with relevant discussion multiple times, by multiple members. You're too busy trying to spew what you think are witty quips at most of them to actually discuss anything in return.

Don't whine about a lack of discussion, all while refusing to participate in the discussion everybody else is having, old chap.