Atlantic Trident. F-35A 'apparently' smokes the EF and the Rafale without a loss

The source of this is the F-16 Net under the F-35 forum if anyone's interested.

The kills by the F-35 (Block 2Bs) occurred outside the ability of either aircraft to detect the F-35. The 35s then closed to the outside range of the AIM-120s and neither aircraft was aware of where the missiles came from. IRST was not effective in locating the F-35s.

Also, the AP-81 radar was never detected by either the Raffy or the EF!

Per the thread, most aren't surprised in the slightest by the results....if accurate. The data seems to be a 'leak' through a Greek publication which is pushing to match Turkey's F-35s.

Kill ratios are cited as 18-0 against the Rafale, 19-0 against the Eurofighter and 16-1 against the F-15E.

The source IS questioned in the thread but most see this as an accurate portrayal of the F-35A's capabilities even though not designed primarily as an air to air fighter!!

If this is accurate, I would again say the US may outright own the skies...

Thoughts?

a reply to: nwtrucker

If the training kill ratios are that high against modern aircraft, imagine what they will rack up for real against North Korea's decrepit Air Force.

originally posted by: RazorV66
a reply to: nwtrucker

If the training kill ratios are that high against modern aircraft, imagine what they will rack up for real against North Korea's decrepit Air Force.

True. Yet it would be the SAMs that would be more of an issue, at a guess. Light one up right under any plane and the pucker factor jumps.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The fact is, even with some of the best IRST in the world, there is no way a Typhoon would know where to find the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

"You still have to know where to look," said Bronk, which would be "almost impossible."

First off, there is an "enormous amounts of clutter and all sorts of Air Force missile threats in any contested environment." Secondly, IRST is hugely affected by weather. Humid parts of the world are inhospitable, and the thermal imaging works better at night when the skies are cooler.

But even on a good day, looking for fifth-generation aircraft in the open skies with IRST is like "looking through a drinking straw," said Bronk.

"The [IRST] field of regard is quite small... and it's much much harder to perform a wide sector scan in a way that a radar can," said Bronk.

IRST can't stop f22 f35

a reply to: nwtrucker

Any word on how the F-15E nailed one?
That'd be really interesting to know, but I could see that information being classified due to the obvious implications revealing a weakness could have...

I've seen them up close. I'm not much of an airplane guy, but the F-22 I got a tour of and then saw them fly, maneuvers, and hover. Total UFO package!
Like I said, I don't know much but the F-22 is insane to watch and hear. If I lived in a cave and had a dirty AK with a hand full of rocks my thoughts of winning a fight would quickly vanish.

originally posted by: muzzleflash
a reply to: nwtrucker

Any word on how the F-15E nailed one?
That'd be really interesting to know, but I could see that information being classified due to the obvious implications revealing a weakness could have...

That one also came from the Greek Publication. Not a peep from any U.S./U.K./ French sources as of yet.

Meh....Zaphod will know.....

originally posted by: nwtrucker
If this is accurate, I would again say the US may outright own the skies...

Thoughts?

Why would the results be any different compared to the F-22s performance in long range BVR simulations?
It the scenario stealth fighters are designed for.

The real question is if the AIM-120D would actually work as advertised/simulated in actual combat.
Accurately simulating an engagement against an opponent using modern decoys and DECM is difficult. The kill probability has always been overestimated by a large margin historically.
Technology has changed on both side of the eqution though, so who knows.

originally posted by: muzzleflash
a reply to: nwtrucker

The fact is, even with some of the best IRST in the world, there is no way a Typhoon would know where to find the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

"You still have to know where to look," said Bronk, which would be "almost impossible."

First off, there is an "enormous amounts of clutter and all sorts of Air Force missile threats in any contested environment." Secondly, IRST is hugely affected by weather. Humid parts of the world are inhospitable, and the thermal imaging works better at night when the skies are cooler.

But even on a good day, looking for fifth-generation aircraft in the open skies with IRST is like "looking through a drinking straw," said Bronk.

"The [IRST] field of regard is quite small... and it's much much harder to perform a wide sector scan in a way that a radar can," said Bronk.

IRST can't stop f22 f35

Then why is the USAF developing laser-powered IRCMs?

originally posted by: mightmight

originally posted by: nwtrucker
If this is accurate, I would again say the US may outright own the skies...

Thoughts?

Why would the results be any different compared to the F-22s performance in long range BVR simulations?
It the scenario stealth fighters are designed for.

The real question is if the AIM-120D would actually work as advertised/simulated in actual combat.
Accurately simulating an engagement against an opponent using modern decoys and DECM is difficult. The kill probability has always been overestimated by a large margin historically.
Technology has changed on both side of the eqution though, so who knows.

That point was also raised in the thread. It was reasonably responded to, based on circumstance and poster of the attacked aircraft. Most is beyond my ken, but it seems reasonable that these simulations have been tweaked over the years.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: muzzleflash
a reply to: nwtrucker

The fact is, even with some of the best IRST in the world, there is no way a Typhoon would know where to find the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

"You still have to know where to look," said Bronk, which would be "almost impossible."

First off, there is an "enormous amounts of clutter and all sorts of Air Force missile threats in any contested environment." Secondly, IRST is hugely affected by weather. Humid parts of the world are inhospitable, and the thermal imaging works better at night when the skies are cooler.

But even on a good day, looking for fifth-generation aircraft in the open skies with IRST is like "looking through a drinking straw," said Bronk.

"The [IRST] field of regard is quite small... and it's much much harder to perform a wide sector scan in a way that a radar can," said Bronk.

IRST can't stop f22 f35

Then why is the USAF developing laser-powered IRCMs?

I was just rewriting the shortened name of the article (in the web address) "/IRST can't stop f22 f35".

You'd still want IRCM for close combat after you're spotted and they fired IR homing missiles at you.

The Greeks once signed a MoU to purchase 90 Tiffies, then they held the Olympics then they went bankrupt!

I dont know anything about the source but the Hellenic AF operate F-16 which Wiki says are to be upgraded. I cant see them in the market for F-35 so no idea why the source is Greek but you would imagine if splashing Tiffies, F-15 and Rafale in such numbers then upgraded F-16 wont come off any better, might be a challenge by HAF telling the government if we want to protect from our largest threat (Turkey) we need to find some more money?

Maybe its a play to get into German and French designs for a 5th gen?

Kill ratios are cited as 18-0 against the Rafale, 19-0 against the Eurofighter and 16-1 against the F-15E.

... I guess you should say it was....


like clubbing baby seals.

a reply to: muzzleflash

The most likely, and common way it happens is the Red Air aircraft regenerates close to the Blue Air aircraft, and is in a position for a snap shot as soon as they come back to life.

originally posted by: muzzleflash

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: muzzleflash
a reply to: nwtrucker

The fact is, even with some of the best IRST in the world, there is no way a Typhoon would know where to find the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

"You still have to know where to look," said Bronk, which would be "almost impossible."

First off, there is an "enormous amounts of clutter and all sorts of Air Force missile threats in any contested environment." Secondly, IRST is hugely affected by weather. Humid parts of the world are inhospitable, and the thermal imaging works better at night when the skies are cooler.

But even on a good day, looking for fifth-generation aircraft in the open skies with IRST is like "looking through a drinking straw," said Bronk.

"The [IRST] field of regard is quite small... and it's much much harder to perform a wide sector scan in a way that a radar can," said Bronk.

IRST can't stop f22 f35

Then why is the USAF developing laser-powered IRCMs?

Ah, OK. That makes sense.
I was just rewriting the shortened name of the article (in the web address) "/IRST can't stop f22 f35".

You'd still want IRCM for close combat after you're spotted and they fired IR homing missiles at you.

a reply to: Zaphod58 Seems you were right all this time about how lethal the F35 is going to be.If combat goes like the exercises have you have definitely got "told you so" bragging rights.

a reply to: nwtrucker

IR missiles.

a reply to: muzzleflash

to add to what Zaph said, we don't know what the ROE's were, so most of the simulated kill ratios need to be taken with a grain of salt.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: muzzleflash

The most likely, and common way it happens is the Red Air aircraft regenerates close to the Blue Air aircraft, and is in a position for a snap shot as soon as they come back to life.

So spawn killing?

originally posted by: Sammamishman
a reply to: nwtrucker

IR missiles.

Of course. Senior moment...cough, cough.