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Utah officer fired after nurse's arrest caught on video

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posted on Oct, 11 2017 @ 06:39 AM
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a reply to: windword

Since you took a shot at me I will point out the the nurse has not been cleared. The termination and demotion were the results of an internal affairs investigation into the 2 officers. The criminal investigation is still ongoing and the PA stated several times they are looking at all parties involved and not just law enforcement. The 42 USC 1983 investigation by the FBI is also still ongoing. Also he was terminated for policy violations and not because of a false arrest or anything like that.

So she has not exactly been completely cleared yet.

Part of me thinks her cryptic responses on filing a law suit against the department / city is contingent upon her getting an outcome she wants and if it doesnt happen then she will most likely sue as a result.

Also from what I have read the police officer union the officers belong to are challenging the terminations based on the release of the video as well as internal affairs reports. Apparently it violated some policies the city established with the argument it prejudiced the population by only allowing one side of the incident to be looked at. The nurse and Hospital get the advantage by being able to give their side to the media while law enforcement is prohibited from doing so.

So while this is a good start there is still more that needs to be done. I believe the 2 officers have 60 days to appeal the decision and I believe it has already occurred for Det. Payne.
edit on 11-10-2017 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-10-2017 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 11 2017 @ 08:46 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Thanks for dropping by!



So she has not exactly been completely cleared yet.


I knew you were going to say that as I was typing it up! LOL



Part of me thinks her cryptic responses on filing a law suit against the department / city is contingent upon her getting an outcome she wants and if it doesnt happen then she will most likely sue as a result.


It's called leverage! Hey, at least you don't think that she's looking to win the lawsuit lottery, or something!



The criminal investigation is still ongoing and the PA stated several times they are looking at all parties involved and not just law enforcement.


I'm sure that they're looking at all parties involved for context, but I don't believe that Nurse Wubbles is under "criminal investigation". She still has her job. The Salt Lake PD has made their decisions and made their concession to the hospital and Nurse Wubbles, and assured the community the PD has updated their policy so that this kind of thing won't happen again. Meanwhile, the hospital enacted policy that now has the PD going to the executive offices with their requests, and not the ER or hospital working area, where the nurses are!




So while this is a good start there is still more that needs to be done. I believe the 2 officers have 60 days to appeal the decision and I believe it has already occurred for Det. Payne.


The union and the officers' legal/union representative would derelict in their duties if they didn't do everything in their power to protect their "clients".

edit on 11-10-2017 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2017 @ 10:09 AM
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a reply to: windword

Glad to see this outcome, for sure...and relatively swiftly, at that.

I wish that he would be brought up on charges of kidnapping, but Utah law states that a defense is a belief that the alleged kidnapper believed he had the legal authority to detain the individual.

I still would convict him, though, because there is ample evidence in the video that tells him that he should have researched it better--he had the time.



posted on Oct, 11 2017 @ 10:11 AM
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originally posted by: windword
Thanks for dropping by!

You're welcome lol



originally posted by: windword
I knew you were going to say that as I was typing it up! LOL

Respectfully though it is the truth. Until the criminal investigation is completed and results announced she is not really in the clear.



originally posted by: windword
It's called leverage! Hey, at least you don't think that she's looking to win the lawsuit lottery, or something!

Im still trying to figure out what she can sue for. Thus far im not seeing anything that is actionable.



originally posted by: windword
I'm sure that they're looking at all parties involved for context, but I don't believe that Nurse Wubbles is under "criminal investigation". She still has her job. The Salt Lake PD has made their decisions and made their concession to the hospital and Nurse Wubbles, and assured the community the PD has updated their policy so that this kind of thing won't happen again. Meanwhile, the hospital enacted policy that now has the PD going to the executive offices with their requests, and not the ER or hospital working area, where the nurses are!


All parties involved are looked at so technically yes, she is under criminal investigation until the PA makes a decision. The SLCPD decisions were based solely on the IA investigation and that has no bearing on the criminal investigation. Its why the IA report they released had entire sections blocked out with garrity protected noted.

The SLCPD changed their policy after the fact. Ironically enough the Hospital police had to do the same thing since their policy was also different than the Hospitals.

As for the Hospital dictating who can speak to law enforcement whatever works for them. I will say that policy wont protect the Hospital should they try to hide behind it for other issues that may arise involving police investigations.



originally posted by: windword
The union and the officers' legal/union representative would derelict in their duties if they didn't do everything in their power to protect their "clients".


I think it also has to do with the city Mayor and the CPRB violating city policy / CPRB policy by releasing the camera footage in addition to the IS review. It would seem ass backwards should these 2 officers be fired / demoted for violating policy only to see the Mayor and the CPRB violate policies to placate certain groups for political reasons.

I am curious to see the results of the criminal investigation. Since he was terminated for violating policy he no longer has immunity from civil law suits and the city / SLCPD can "disassociate" themselves, placing the entire financial burden on the officer alone.

Should be interesting to watch the rest of this play out.
edit on 11-10-2017 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2017 @ 04:13 PM
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www.scribd.com... here is the termination letter, i guess payne withheld information from his CO and that played a part in his termination ,the over all letter comes off as scathing ,his attorny plans to appeal the process so we will have to wait until that part is done to finally put this one to bed



posted on Oct, 12 2017 @ 10:33 AM
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originally posted by: RalagaNarHallas
www.scribd.com... here is the termination letter, i guess payne withheld information from his CO and that played a part in his termination ,the over all letter comes off as scathing ,his attorny plans to appeal the process so we will have to wait until that part is done to finally put this one to bed


After reading that memo it is now clear just how badly Det. Payne screwed that up. Failing to disclose critical information to the Lt., resulting in an unneeded escalation, is scary to say the least. Absent other information I dont see his termination being overturned with the exception of the Mayor and CPRB violating their own policies on releasing video and IA reports before the conclusion of the IA investigation / criminal investigation / civil rights investigation.

Based on the info the decision to terminate was completely justified.

With that said I still believe the Hospital and SLCPD have gone head to head in the past over the authority of law enforcement verse the medical authority of medical staff. I still think the Hospital acted in the way it did due to issues between them and the police prior to this incident.

The lawyer for Det. Payne stated the entire story has not been told and that Payne was looking forward to giving a complete context view at some point. If I had to guess it will include issues the PD has had with the Hospital.

Thanks for posting the report.

With that said I now need to swallow my pride and apologize to the members I sparred with in the original thread. This is why I keep pushing for the investigations to complete before rendering an opinion. It also demonstrates what i was talking about with regards to the nurse and her telling only her side of the story. She in fact left out information in her version and also was not privy to the entire conversations between members of law enforcement.

My sincerest apologies to those members.
edit on 12-10-2017 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2017 @ 11:32 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra
I think that a poor understanding of what it means to be a patient advocate has added some fuel to this debate.

There did not have to bad blood between the police department and the hospital for a conflict to arise. In fact it is inevitable.

My job places me in the position of a patient advocate. That is my primary function, even though that is not what all the other departments I work with think. They think my primary job is to collect evidentiary evidence. Collection of evidence will always take second place and may not even occur, if I feel it will place my patient in jeopardy.

Everybody has their rules, regulations, tasks and goals. It is inevitable that we will butt heads at times. That is where calm cool conversation, and sometimes negotiation, has to prevail. I may butt heads with doctors, nurses, labs, registration, police officers, detectives, chiefs, lawyers and State Attorneys. I honestly do not believe that at the end of these conflicts, there was any feelings of bad blood left behind.

I believe that we all realize that it is just part of the job, and sometimes it is done for the record and to cover our assess. In the end the focus has to always be what is best for the patient. Sometimes one or the other of us has to be reminded that we are fighting towards the same goal, and it can get a bit heated at times, but I don't think it is luck that has prevented the conflicts from reaching the insane degree that was reached in this incident.

Thank you for sharing your feelings on the preliminary outcome of this event.



posted on Oct, 12 2017 @ 11:53 AM
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a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Fair points but I will say I worked in a level 1 trauma facility for 6 years before going int law enforcement full time so I do have an understanding of the position of medical staff. With that said i also have seen this same issue crop up over the years where medical staff and law enforcement butt heads.

The other issue is in regards to placing a patient in jeopardy. In this case the nurse never cited a medical reason to deny access. so I dont see how she was protecting er patient from jeopardy.

With that said I wont rehash our debate from the other thread. I just wanted to apologize as the new information changes my perception of what occurred.



posted on Oct, 12 2017 @ 12:21 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra
I too will not rehash old material but I have learned a lot from this incident.

I have never argued medical reasons with a police official, as I would expect it to go over their heads, and in the heat of the moment, the only thing they usually throw in my face is the law, so my first defense is usually to throw back rules, or regulations that support my stance. I too carry copies of supporting documents that I try to use to get them to understand my position. We even had point cards printed up for each department so they would be able to see in black and white, in our case it is blue and white, what the rules and regs are.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't for the situation that brought us to this place, but I had a run in just last week with the police over a conflict of interest. The road officer was getting quite perturbed and I could see his anger escalating. So in an attempt to deescalate the situation, I told him, "Calm down Sir!" "I am not challenging your Athouritah!" He stopped dead sentence, looked at me, cocked his head, and cracked up laughing.

The event was diffused and we negotiated.

I agree with you that this may not have been the first time this officer has had a conflict in this hospital, but his allowing inevitable conflicts to develop into a war between him and the hospital was his huge mistake. Conflict comes with the job.




edit on 12-10-2017 by NightSkyeB4Dawn because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2017 @ 08:22 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: RalagaNarHallas
www.scribd.com... here is the termination letter, i guess payne withheld information from his CO and that played a part in his termination ,the over all letter comes off as scathing ,his attorny plans to appeal the process so we will have to wait until that part is done to finally put this one to bed


After reading that memo it is now clear just how badly Det. Payne screwed that up. Failing to disclose critical information to the Lt., resulting in an unneeded escalation, is scary to say the least. Absent other information I dont see his termination being overturned with the exception of the Mayor and CPRB violating their own policies on releasing video and IA reports before the conclusion of the IA investigation / criminal investigation / civil rights investigation.

Based on the info the decision to terminate was completely justified.

With that said I still believe the Hospital and SLCPD have gone head to head in the past over the authority of law enforcement verse the medical authority of medical staff. I still think the Hospital acted in the way it did due to issues between them and the police prior to this incident.

The lawyer for Det. Payne stated the entire story has not been told and that Payne was looking forward to giving a complete context view at some point. If I had to guess it will include issues the PD has had with the Hospital.

Thanks for posting the report.

With that said I now need to swallow my pride and apologize to the members I sparred with in the original thread. This is why I keep pushing for the investigations to complete before rendering an opinion. It also demonstrates what i was talking about with regards to the nurse and her telling only her side of the story. She in fact left out information in her version and also was not privy to the entire conversations between members of law enforcement.

My sincerest apologies to those members.

We knew that he was violating the law in the last thread, but it was ignored.

One officer asked him why he hadn't gotten a warrant, and he said there was no probable cause. We knew this in that thread.

Without probable cause, there is no warrant, no exigent circumstance, and no investigation. The end. We knew this in that thread.

The fact that no officer present shut down the situation immediately upon learning that speaks poorly of all officers present.
edit on 20Thu, 12 Oct 2017 20:25:12 -0500America/ChicagovAmerica/Chicago10 by Greven because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2017 @ 09:30 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra
No pride swallowing required, at least for me. The only reason I broke my "I barely ever post" rule was I always respected you and was kinda floundering to understand your adamant view and to try to make you see ours. Water under the bridge tho


In officer related stuff I'll still look for you and Shamrock to give us "the other side" because you guys have always been very level headed and straight shooters. Thanks for apologizing though and I also apologize if anything I said in the big thread upset you



posted on Oct, 12 2017 @ 09:33 PM
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a reply to: windword

I’m so glad justice prevailed in this case.

The nurse was cleared of all charges, and the officer in question was fired for abuse of power.




posted on Oct, 12 2017 @ 10:12 PM
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a reply to: windword

27 yrs on the force. After a while it seems some of these guys start thinking they r god, or maybe the pressure and negativity, etc,got 2 him.

Isn't there some limit 4 combat tours? D due to psychological strain? and maybe we should have something similar for police in high-crime cities



posted on Oct, 13 2017 @ 03:50 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

I not surprised of the outcome, this should not have taken place, justice or common sense prevails so all is good concerning this event.

I think I made myself clear in the main thread that I have a tonne of respect for the police force, I used to be in the fire Brigade and was often first responder to car accidents house fire fatalities etc and can imagine the police force having to deal with added responsibility and much more critical decision making and tragadies than I ever underwent.

Keep a clear head stay safe and take a break when needed.



posted on Oct, 13 2017 @ 07:09 PM
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a reply to: windword


What upsets me is the LT was bumped down to officer which means he is still out on the streets patrolling



posted on Oct, 13 2017 @ 08:48 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Hey man, I and you haven't interacted much over the years but I have always paid attention to your posts. You've always(well almost always
) tried to keep a level head and add the side of the argument that most won't bother to consider. You've also usually taken the stance of "lets wait and see until the evidence comes out or the investigation is complete". I've got family that are cops as well as very close friends. I can appreciate the stress that your job entails.

In other words I have always respected your opinion, whether I have agreed or not.

In this case, I think there was a tonne wrong with the whole thing from all sides for many different reasons but in the end, the cop arresting the nurse was in the wrong. It never should have gotten that far.

It takes a big man to say "hey I was wrong and I stand by the fact that I was and own it."

That's integrity mate.

Good on ya.



posted on Oct, 16 2017 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: windword

1 down 764,999 to go.


Or at least a significant percentage of such.



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