George Foreman is trying to get paid. just challenged Steven Seagal to a no holds barred fight

a reply to: BeefNoMeat

He also wrecked shop cause he was fighting guys that didn't know anything about fighting on the ground

a reply to: TinySickTears

wow, ok. Lets just get everyone to fight ala celebrity death match.

Segal isnt in shape. His martial arts training is kind of lame. Its a self defence art. Dont worry too much about what belt or degree they are.

Im not sure how well Segal will be able to take a professional hit.

My bet is they stage the first few rounds, then let loose and segal gets rocked. Then they stop the fight and foreman is voted the winner.

a reply to: BeefNoMeat

I can tell that your approaching this from a sports mind set. Sports martial arts although popular are a subset of martial arts. Not the other way around. Often it seems as if with that mind set the martial art universe begins and ends with mma. When there are real folk out there for millennia using other stuff to high success in real confrontations that arent found in the lexicon of mma. Yet they exist their arts work in contexts not stipulated by the mma.

Funny you talk about defensively offensing. As if some guys in brazil taking an art taught to him by a japanese juijitsu guy were the first to come up with counter offensive strategies although its the sole basis behind at least half of most martial arts. There have been martial artists for millennia from every walk of life kingdom and race that have been kniwledgable of that.

The theory behind most martial arts are valid what ruins them is the training and mind set handed down. Many martial arts although valid loose the knowledge applications and training therin to remain viable. This is not the systems fault but the teachers fault. I gaurantee that for every martial art out there there is at least one instructor who understands the original context and proper ways to train their art. And they are every bit as dangerous as a mma champion. They may be washed out by 99 percent of the instructors in their art being miseducated who teach crap and give the art a bad name but there still exists a vestige of instructors that still represent the real art.

Because arts loose their connection to their origional purpose over generations of non real world use they begin to gentrify over generations and instructors. Each art is on a individual timeline regarding when it gets too distanced from its origens and effective usage. Some arts are mature on that scale like most northern chinese kung fu systems. Tantui longfist changchuan etc. Wushu. Others are young like pekiti tersia or brazilian juijitsu. Still close to their roots. But even they are on paths leading them away from their true combative applications and being gentrified. As much as one might love brazilian juijitsu its being gentrified by its popularity in mma slowely mutating away from combatives towards just sports zeitgeist. In 100 years people will be making fun of juijitsu like they do tae kwon do or karate who in turn made fun of kung fu etc. Its just how arts deteriorate.

You would think turning an art into a widly practiced sport would ensure its vigor and effectiveness but thats just not the case making any art into a sport dillutes it. Bjj is experiencing that now. Modified modified modified in one hundred years it will be as watered down as tae kwon do.

Funny enough history repeats its self and at the core of almost all martial arts is a real effective fighting art sometimes they all share pretty much the same principles and applications. And thats where all arts are equal depending on the fighters understanding of usage. But at the same time training methods and actual combative knowledge of the arts usage are what deteriorates as arts gentrify. Thats what makes arts when played out of context usage or most often ignornantly less effective than others. But all things are relative in martial arts with wide enough perspective .

There are new old arts resurfacing that have garnered lots of intetest in martial arts that arent represented in the mma lexicon. However the interest in those arts are not always from sport fighters but from warriors with other mission perameters equally as serious and they are exploring and discovering other arts that have always been there . mma is by no means the pinnacle of combative expression . not juijitsu or muay thai. The spectrum and Needs are wider and more diverse. one tool does not fit all situations. That is the point. Different martial arts for different situations. And no not all of them fall under the needs of mma fighers. And the knowledge of mma fughters wont succeed in every situation.

And finally stop thinking of martial arts as empty hand. Most martial arts were originaly weapon based. And its equally as valid to bring a knife to a fist fight. Its how you win battles and stay ahead of your enemy. Not playing fair mastering sonething that gives you an edge. Its the real warriors way. Win at all costs. Violence of action will superseded and lead to a position of relative superiority. Sometimes its not always done via bjj.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR

You would think turning an art into a widly practiced sport would ensure its vigor and effectiveness but thats just not the case making any art into a sport dillutes it. Bjj is experiencing that now.

can you please explain this because i feel the exact opposite?

do you roll?

definitely dont want to argue. we have always had good conversations. i just want to see where you coming from.
i recently started training again after 20 years away from it. 40 and beat up. basically starting over.

i would like to know why you feel the way you do before i refute with how i feel how i feel.

lets dig into this my friend

a reply to: TinySickTears

Yeah, they were experiencing something completely foreign to them. Getting rabbit-punched with bare knuckles while he’s sinking in a nasty blood choke will break ya. Again, I didn’t find any of those early one-off tournaments to be all that entertaining — or aesthetically pleasing for a BJJ purist or Emanuel Steward — but the thread was about a hypothetical fight between to differing disciplines, and as noted above, that was essentially the essence of those first UFC events, so I mentioned it for context.

If you’re talking or attending/watching the Eddie Bravo Invitional, you already know this. And I see that your location is set to 10th planet — I’d seriously be surprised if that’s not an EB jits sig... Good luck picking up your training — I can’t say anything about a 40-yr old body, but there have been a fair amount of elder statesmen that have dropped in that are much older. There are few on these boards that ‘roll’, surprisingly (at least to me). I don’t patronize ATS for ‘karate magazine’ discussions, but I do applaud you for making the thread and welcome more. Cheers.

originally posted by: BeefNoMeat
a reply to: TinySickTears

Again, I didn’t find any of those early one-off tournaments to be all that entertaining — or aesthetically pleasing for a BJJ purist or
at the time i did. its what got me into jiu itsu. before that it was all wrestling and tae kwon do for me. i knew # about submissions. i thought it was the coolest #ing thing i had ever seen in my life and it changed me. looking back at it now though. it was not exciting at all. back in 93 it was new and fresh. i crank up fight pass ot and watch ufc 2 and i love it because of the nostalgia but it is pretty horrendous. the game has changed a lot in 20 years.

If you’re talking or attending/watching the Eddie Bravo Invitional, you already know this. And I see that your location is set to 10th planet — I’d seriously be surprised if that’s not an EB jits sig... Good luck picking up your training — I can’t say anything about a 40-yr old body, but there have been a fair amount of elder statesmen that have dropped in that are much older. There are few on these boards that ‘roll’, surprisingly (at least to me). I don’t patronize ATS for ‘karate magazine’ discussions, but I do applaud you for making the thread and welcome more. Cheers.

i watch all the EBI. its my favorite event right now. the location is a nod to Eddie. though i do not train with Eddie or at 10th planet(i train at Brasa) i owe him a huge debt. changed my life again.
i am sore all the time but i love it.
after i got on the jiu jitsu train in like 94 i trained for a couple years and then had my son in 96. life took over and everything took a backseat. things are different for me now.
i know i will never compete. i will never be at a high level and that is not my goal.
i have had a couple bad injuries and major surgery and needed to get something positive going in my life. i have loved jiu jitsu for a long time but kind of got away from it until a couple years ago.

went through my usual emotions of why #in bother starting again. i am 40. i have 4 fingers on my left hand.

Eddie does Q&A on his nibiru forums and i was lucky enough to get a question answered by Eddie in a way that i needed to hear. Jean Jacques Machado was mentioned. he only has a thumb on his left hand. things started to settle in for me.

i set a reachable goal for myself and i am going to get it. it it going to take me a long time but i will do it.

thanks for digging the discussion. i get a bit carried away sometimes.

if you are into these things EBI is coming up in a couple weeks then in december it is the absolute.

to be fair catch wrestling was kind of my first love of that world but it happened by chance.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

I have got a wide enough perspective: you wrote a whole bunch and said nothing. That’s impressive, but sorta pathetic.

Sum it very quickly: this thread was about an alleged match of differing disciplines with “no holds bar”. Outside of a weapon, beat on the other or craftily subdue him, but last guy standing. Simple. All that nonsense in your response is that. No — equally is way off — all different disciplines are employed to the natural and learned techniques of said fighter. Yeah, we go through motions and pay respects during class, but that’s all token imagery. D has massive writs and grip strength, so staying up top with him is to your demise — get under his hips and bend something until to he taps*. The point is simple: this was about a hypothetical match-up between two differing disciplines and survey ATS on whom they think would win and why? Not about some antiquated take on ‘martial arts’. Not some theoretical take on how to incorporate differing disciplines under the guise of true martial arts using the ‘warrior way’.

The “sports’ take” is precisely the answer to the thread. You find me the most-effective traditional artist below 160lbs and match him up with Max Holloway and I’m betting the house on “Blessed”. It’s just like Wall Street and not JPL, those young Harvard entrants matriculate to the ‘business degrees’. The human capital follows the dollars. Same with “martial arts”. Under the given circumstances (e.g. Chinese culture and laws, particularly the laws), where are the dollars following in any given endeavor? It’s why the Chinese MMA fighter has exposed and pummeled all these peddling, idolatrous masters of the “traditional arts”. Not a SINGLE master has taken the challenge and came out of it a winner. What, lemme guess: the price of honor can’t be enumerated? No, these masters use sleight of hand and 100s of years of deception in convincing the ‘sheeple’ this all can be achieved through, making one a vessel of respect/honor/loyalty to any number of “martial arts” and their surrogate teachers, no matter the opponent (surely, anyone that wrote what you reeled off has to “believe” [as I said, you name a weight and opponent and I’ll gladly name the opponent [we’re not honoring our ‘masters’, this is a real-life, whoever-walks-away-conscious-or-less-beaten wins the fight. NO weapons] and the wager] this can be accomplished through focusing your “QI” and being psychologically/emotionally superior to your opponent).

And if you do roll, the omoplata is so 2005. We’re familiar with it and can be had, but if you’re gonna go through the chains, might as well spend the time trying to lock up a gogoplata. Good thing we usually start on the mats because D can throw anyone and lock up a kimura with the quickness**. At any rate, as it relates to the thread, it’s about a hypothetical match-up with NO weapons (and no dick punches — I’m pretty sure that goes without saying, but you never know if you ‘believe’ and couch some nonsense relating to weapons and it’s relevance to the thread) just who would win in a fight. I say Foreman catches him and wins, but he could trip over his own feet and break his hip — Seagal wins by walking away (as mentioned, his discipline requires quite a bit of the opponent’s momentum to win...anyone training to fight him would know and avoid this).

Finally, funny that you spent all that space attempting to lecture me over “some guys in brazil taking an art taught to him by a japanese juijitsu guy were the first to come up with counter offensive strategies ...” or driveling out something about the ‘mma lexicon’ (must be proud, you probably thought that was witty or original or intelligent or meaningful) and what/where *I* need to “approach”...no, you don’t tell me how to approach anything, or play arm-chair psychologist. Or pontificate on what you assumed I thought about modern day MMA versus traditional martial arts. Stay in your lane. More importantly, stay on topic.

*Breaking or dislocating something is a no-no. Hell, you’ll be black-balled and be rolling with some teenage white belts at your local Rotary Club.
**”Master” tells D that we didn’t spend all that time cleaning the mats so he can show off.

a reply to: BeefNoMeat

i like that post.
i am having fun
i accept the challenge though we both know the answer

who wins?

bruce lee vs demetrius johnson

bruce prob had 10lbs on him





know what im saying

a reply to: TinySickTears

Yeah, I dig the discussion. There was nothing in my hole-in-the-wall town, so my dad got me a heavy bag for my 15th birthday and I slowly expanded the gear to where enough of us could get together and 'train'. It usually ended with tackle football, but there were some earnest efforts that summer...thank god for land grant universities, I got the hell outta there and the university allowed some members of a local MMA 'club' to use the old-ass wrestling facilities (it has since been demolished) -- that was my beginning/entrance into BJJ. Having to use the #ty gym because I wasn't an athlete or upper-classman linked me up with some guys that fought on the D.C./Maryland regional scene... I did box in some Golden Glove amatuer matches, but I have never competed in any BJJ tournaments. A good friend of mine, who is about your age, rolls and he does so because his 12yr old son wanted to get into it. When he told me was going for his blue-belt, I was like, "Damn, when did you start to roll, James"? He's diehard about it and never trained as a youth. I haven't gotten any mat time in a hot minute, but the gym is still there and there's been little turnover in the past 12 years -- which is kinda surprising for a gym, in my experience.

Anyways, good luck and as I said, I'd go with Foreman (although Ali did steal his soul in Zaire -- few remember the mean-mugging, terrifying George Foreman and instead know the big-ass smile, lean mean grilling machine Foreman).

a reply to: TinySickTears

Ha, is that a trick question? I saw that armbar live. Blown away by that dude. Bruce Lee wasn't a myth, so I'll have to lean towards him if he's given a good 6 months of sprawl training. I remember a certain night when my mouth got away from me and I was in the Quad drinking amongst some wrestlers...NCAA division I wrestlers...I can still feel the breath leaving my body from that slam. Lesson learned.

originally posted by: BeefNoMeat
a reply to: TinySickTears

Ha, is that a trick question? I saw that armbar live. Blown away by that dude. Bruce Lee wasn't a myth, so I'll have to lean towards him if he's given a good 6 months of sprawl training. I remember a certain night when my mouth got away from me and I was in the Quad drinking amongst some wrestlers...NCAA division I wrestlers...I can still feel the breath leaving my body from that slam. Lesson learned.

no trick.
my thoughts on bruce lee
i love bruce lee as a martial artist. i love bruce lee's philosophy on life and fighting. i love his dedication to teaching, mental health through martial arts and fitness. i love his thoughts on cross training but i have always been of the opinion that bruce lee was not a fighter. he was an amazing martial artist but not a fighter. there is a difference.
bruce lee is one of the most influential martial artists of all time and rightfully so. nothing should take away from anything he accomplished but none of that should lead us to think he could actually do this # for real against a trained person trying to get after him.

again just my opinion but mighty mouse is arguably the greatest 125 of all time. 11 title defenses. just insanity. i just cant see him taking hi out after 6 months of sprawl training. i could be wrong but i dont think so.
after all he is still a human and not some super man. in this very thread we have both mentioned that there has never been a traditional martial artist that has done anything in the legit fight scene so there is no reason to think he would be any different.

i do want to say sorry cause i hate when martial arts/fight discussions turn towards bruce lee and i just did it to myself.

we can continue the bruce talk if you want but i would prefer to let that one go. nobody's opinion on bruce is going to change so why bother you know?

back to the topic

none if this is to say that elements of traditional martial arts are not effective in actual situations. i will use mma just because that is what is available and what most people know.
we are starting to see a good deal of tae kwon do wheel kicks and karate oblique kicks and they are very effective. machida was very effective with a karate stance as is conor.
these days you have to cross train and take elements of many styles to be a successful, well rounded fighter.

if i had to fight for my life 1 on 1 personally i would take jiu jitsu as my style of choice but being limited to 1 style is not a good idea. if a pure jiu jitsu player entered into the ufc lets say he would have a very hard time. people can not do a royce gracie in 2017. i am sure there will be some success to be had but without a little wrestling at least it will end bad.

you know what i mean

i took tae kwon do for years. loved it. i am still a huge advocate for that and all traditional styles. i hope they never die. i would like to see more traditional schools. traditional is great for discipline and fitness and self defense against the average joe on the playground that is trying to bully you. not everyone joins martial arts to be come an amateur fighter or a pro fighter...
but if a person does want to learn to fight and do well against others that know how to fight traditional is not the way to go.

hey man are you actually in long beach?

i dont know the distance from there to any of these but here are the 10th planet locations in california

la
buena park
burbank
costa mesa
irvine
orange
pasadena just opened
riverside
van nuys
beverly hills

there is a few check mats out that way
attos is out there

some killer jiu jitsu going on out that way man
if you ever think about getting in it again you know

best time ever for jiu jitsu

a reply to: TinySickTears

Sorry dude, I’m watching my Indians choke...ugh.

I’m back on the East Coast, but did some contracting work as a cost engineer in LBC. I should change that — been here since June — but I had a college buddy intern in San Diego — I could telecommute 1099ing the income — and he pointed me in the right direction and I attended a gym there that has put out some legit UFC talent. I spent most of that time in San Diego. I’m in NC now and haven’t rolled in several months... funny though, I was at La Farm bakery a few months back and was introduced to Josh Koscheck and his fiancé. Just so happens he is teaching my friend, James, son and he intoduced us. If you ever make it to “The City of Oaks” and wanna expand your gym horizons, I could easily put into contact with some legit BJJ guys. Like I said, by-and-large, I stuck with my boxing, but I did roll for a couple years and know the best training grounds in the locale. Guess we could set it up via PM, but it’d be fun to roll with an ATSers.

a reply to: LesMisanthropeHell, yeah! Danny is the man.

a reply to: BeefNoMeat

And here I thought the dumbest thing I’d read in this thread was MMA was analogous to pro wrassling — this post gives me pause and I now nominate the above post as equally uninformed. If you take nothing away from this thread, remember this: “Styles make fights”.

What in your limited view is so uniformed about the facts I posted?

"styles makes fights"

Yeah, didn't say they didn't.

Styles make for good entertainment but a good fighter isn't limited to his abilities because of the style they use.


That is why I said psychology plays a large part, the mind set of a fighter is just as important as their physique.

a reply to: TinySickTears

Dumbest post in the history of dumb posts. Thanks for the laugh.

anytime


Whats really funny is the reaction to what I posted.

I guess facts anger couch potatoes because their TV told them differently

a reply to: InhaleExhale

A good fighter is 100% limited to the abilities of his style.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

The style has no matter in the outcome of the fight.

Lol, wut? The above quote is your’s. That’s a pretty cool style, talking out of both sides of your mouth. Stick to arm-chair commentary...and get a new tv — it’ll help with your terribly uninformed drivel.