Apparently Catalonia has born as a Nation or it is the worst post civil war Crisis for Spain

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ancientthunder
You really didn't consider the idea, how would the rest of England take london leaving the uk? I will answer for you, they would see it and feel it as a kind of treason, a dishonourable choice. They would be appaled by it, they would feel resentment.iT WOULD be considered a disgrace by many. a reply to: SprocketUK

A more reasonable analogy would be Scotland choosing to leave the UK.

Our government supported their right to have a free and fair referendum on the issue and, furthermore most UK citizens also support the Scottish people's right to decide the matter for themselves
That is what the Spanish government should have done with respect to Catalonia and, the idea of the UK government EVER sending police in to beat people at polling stations, confiscate ballot boxes and generally oppress the population is nonsensical and, I would imagine would result in the fall of that government.

And there is no way London would ever secede from the UK, despite whatever tabloid hacks might say who are trying to spin up the words of lefty windbags like the mayor.

Good points I have to agree with you, but I remind you that the constitution does not allow that vote. The Spanish constitution does allow for an update to be applied, but that update would have to be passed, The Catalonian politicians, instigated the people to vote something that is 100 percent illegal. So, in the same way, they are similar to football hooligans breaking the law. Yes, their cause is much nobler, but as I am sure you know, the law cares not for what one considers a noble cause.
If one realizes that everything is a contract, one begins to see that the idea of breaking a contract has a cost. In some cases, force has to be used on the people who brake the contract.

Another analogy for you, when you refuse to pay your mortgage and at the same time insist on living on the property by chaining yourself to that very property. The police turn up and use whatever means to remove you, whether your a Grandma, a Mother with children or an immigrant.
Have you asked yourself, why the Spanish goverment gave the thumbs up for the use of force? Where they really that stupid to not realize the whole world would be watching? If so what are they trying to achieve?

Were not the English present in Ireland at some point using force? I realize you may say its different and surely you will argue your point. But truly how different is it? Let us not forget that there are plenty of Spanish living in Catalunya.

a reply to: The angel of light

BREAKING : Carles Puigdemont has announced the independance of Catalonia :

Declaración independencia de Catalunya: Puigdemont y el pleno, en directo

Puigdemont declares independence for Catalonia but suspends it in search of dialogue

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Well that sure escalated fast. I predict nothing more than article 155 invoked and any politicians involved with the referendum to be arrested soon. That's just my prediction here. I hope the 2 parties can talk things out but it sure seems unlikely thus far. Also of note, the CUP which is the Catalan PMs party did not applaud his speech.

According to what I was reading, Puigdemont said he would delay the announcement of independence in the hopes of working something out with Madrid. But of course Madrid is having none of it, and they're going to invoke Article 155 (which means suspending the Catalan government).

a reply to: ancientthunder

I get your point re the constitution, though what goid is a constitution if it is merely a tool to oppress the people?

I don't see any peaceful end to this as long as Madrid tries to stymie the rights of the people in this way.

Does anyone want to force people to be their family in such a way? Really? It does no one any good.

I heartily agree but then again I am not a goverment with all the Spanish history behind me, your view is a higher view. I hope others can see to reach that view. The best way at the moment is to describe what is happening on all fronts, that way it won't be so easy to repeat history. Old habits seem to always resurface.a reply to: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ancientthunder
I heartily agree but then again I am not a goverment with all the Spanish history behind me, your view is a higher view. I hope others can see to reach that view. The best way at the moment is to describe what is happening on all fronts, that way it won't be so easy to repeat history. Old habits seem to always resurface.a reply to: SprocketUK

I just find them anachronistic and, dare I say it, slightly Fascist still. I read a thing years ago in the Observer I think, about the Basque people and how they all felt as though they were looked down upon and dismissed as proper Spaniards by the rest of the country.
This whole fiasco reminds me of that.

Your right there is a strong element of that, but the target changes quickly. The south of Spain has always been considered the bum of Spain, Madrid and Barcelona contributed to that. In fact, Catalania, have a wealthy section who think their poo rolls up the hill. It is a psychological pattern found throughout Human minds, "I'm the king of the castle and your the dirty rascal"
In Spain, of course, we have the Church who got that ball rolling, let's face it they were the ones that made sure it was them alone that could read or write back in the day. It's a domino effect, the German church would be laughing down their nose at the Spanish.
Its all about intellectual superiority at the end of the day, this is none other than our good old friend "the bully". The question is Shakespearian in my opinion " who is fooling who?"

Also, there is a well-known saying or term, commonly known as the two Spains. Full on duality coming to a town near you, in the UK its called the north-south devide. Also fully apparent in London as well.

What is happening all these divisions are becoming more and more obvious, it's a worldwide phenomenon. Humans realizing how pathetically childish we all are.


a reply to: SprocketUK

a reply to: ancientthunder


You might be right there.

I think his whole saga has only damaged Spain in the eyes of the world and made them look rather backward though.

Franco-Fascist Rajoy is planning to have mass chaos in Catalonia to start an emergency law and maybe request NATO's intervention. This is because Spain and Italy are completely bankrupt. Additionally all western propped up financial bubbles are about to burst. There are many bubbles that have formed since the 2008 economic crisis even though the economy of the west has never recovered.

Franco-Fascist Rajoy is desperate to start a civil war, and latest demands of "so-called" clarifying Puigdemont position on what's the referendum's result indicate precisely that.
Rajoy demands a clarification by Monday ... otherwise what? What's he gonna do? Get the Italian armed forces to intervene?
I would say let Rajoy move first!