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Ancient flying machines? Were they Zeppelins?

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posted on Oct, 18 2017 @ 04:32 PM
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originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.

So, about 40 of those to lift yer average pyramid stone.

Harte




posted on Oct, 18 2017 @ 04:48 PM
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originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: ignorant_ape

Why let real world physics get in the way.
Things like,, weight of the rigging and envelope and how does that affect the volume and amount of heat required to lift object+rigging+envelope.


That and wind. Balloons fixed to the ground will spin unless they have tail sections and guidance. Having been in the Egypt a number of times, its a windy place except at dawn and dusk.

Wind at Cairo airport:

www.windfinder.com...

so about 25% of the time you have 9 knot winds or 17 kph or 11 mph......



posted on Oct, 18 2017 @ 04:49 PM
link   

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.


Yep, you can certain make a covering for a hot air balloon but how about hydrogen production and storage?



posted on Oct, 18 2017 @ 04:53 PM
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originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.

So, about 40 of those to lift yer average pyramid stone.

Harte


Hey smart math guy could you possibly determine how much surface area that would create that wind could exert pressure of- at say 17 kph or 11 mph. I remember that all airships had the same enemy - wind. Unless you wanted to go where the wind was going



posted on Oct, 18 2017 @ 05:04 PM
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originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.

So, about 40 of those to lift yer average pyramid stone.

Harte


Hey smart math guy could you possibly determine how much surface area that would create that wind could exert pressure of- at say 17 kph or 11 mph. I remember that all airships had the same enemy - wind. Unless you wanted to go where the wind was going

I'll pass, if it's all the same to you.

But it wouldn't be enough to blow your pyramid stones away across the Sahara to the Land of Oz.

And maybe they approached the pyramid from the windward side and let the wind carry the stones up.

You can do more when you have the wind at your back.

Well, except if your trying to walk backward.

Harte



posted on Oct, 18 2017 @ 05:07 PM
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If you want to do it, I can tell you that the pressure on the bag surface changes with the cosine of the angle between the wind vector and the surface of the bag. But that will make the surface change shape so the angle(s) will change too, so...

That's why they run simulations for such questions.

Harte



posted on Oct, 18 2017 @ 06:33 PM
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originally posted by: Harte
If you want to do it, I can tell you that the pressure on the bag surface changes with the cosine of the angle between the wind vector and the surface of the bag. But that will make the surface change shape so the angle(s) will change too, so...

That's why they run simulations for such questions.

Harte


Thanks but lets not have all that technical jargon : ]. I use to have to teach math(s) on occasion and always hated learning all the stuff again...aaaahhaaa, and then brain dumping it at the end of the semester.



posted on Oct, 18 2017 @ 10:34 PM
link   

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.

So, about 40 of those to lift yer average pyramid stone.

Harte


Or one of them measuring 40 x 40 x 25 could do it (adding up to 40 k) .

Volume increases faster than one might think, when you grow the dimensions.



originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.


Yep, you can certain make a covering for a hot air balloon but how about hydrogen production and storage?


You couldn't make it all one balloon. Rather a bunch of tiny balloons (which is how the zeppelins of world war I were made) .

When you go to store it, you remove the balloons one at a time, and bring them into a cave or something.


Hydrogen production is actually pretty easy. You just need two wires connected to a battery. Nothing more.
Put the two wires into some water, and hydrogen will form at the cathode, and oxygen at the anode. Nothing more to it than that.

en.wikipedia.org...

As for the electricity, creating a battery doesn't really require an actual understanding of electricity. At the simplest level, you can put two metal objects made of different metals into a lemon, and that will produce electricity due to chemical interactions that happen to the metals.

Usually Zinc and Copper are good choices.

If you need more power, you can chain a lot of lemons together into one big battery.


en.wikipedia.org...



So all you need is for some smart guy to try putting two different metals into a lemon, and then put wires connected to them into some water, and notice the hydrogen bubbles forming.

He doesn't need to know why it is happening. He might come up with some silly theory about evil spirits drinking the lemon juice and burping out hydrogen, or whatever nonsense. Doesn't change the result any.



originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: ignorant_ape

Why let real world physics get in the way.
Things like,, weight of the rigging and envelope and how does that affect the volume and amount of heat required to lift object+rigging+envelope.


That and wind. Balloons fixed to the ground will spin unless they have tail sections and guidance. Having been in the Egypt a number of times, its a windy place except at dawn and dusk.

Wind at Cairo airport:

www.windfinder.com...

so about 25% of the time you have 9 knot winds or 17 kph or 11 mph......



If we're talking about a truly ancient civilization during the ice age, then Egypt had a different climate back then.



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 02:25 AM
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Since people brought up numbers and such,

The Hindenburg, arguablely the pinnacle of rigid hydrogen lifted, powered airship, had a gas volume of 7,062,000ft^3, providing 511,500lb of lift.
The total weight of the vehicle was 484,000lb, leaving enoungh lift for 27,500lb.
Which works out to 256.8ft^3 of H2 to lift 1lb of weight taking the weight of containment and structure to hold that volume of gas into account.

Now that is for a state of the art design, it had the absolute minimum amount of structure mass needed to hold the gas and provide stucture, since the ancients could have come nowhere near that with the materials they had, we will call a wash on the fact the total Hindenburg weight includes engines and passenger decks and i didnt acount for rigging materials either.
So if H2 gives ~60lb of lift /1000ft^3 and the Hind. lifted 4lb/1000^3, 56lb of structure is required to contain and control the 1000ft^3 of gas.
And thats if you have access to metals like aluminum and materials like rubber and ultra high thread count machine woven fabrics.

Now I have a question, what material did the AE use for rigging?, hemp? animal hair, leather, palm fiber?, because that figures heavily in the weight of rigging.
Given the materials they had to work with, in some cases rigging weight approaches load weight.
Then there is gas bags, which when I looked into the materials used on the Hind., I discovered the AE had the ability to produce and did use the materials, just not for the same purpose.
The "cow intestine" used in the airships is actualy goldbeaters skin,


Goldbeater's skin is a sheet of tissue traditionally used in the process of making gold leaf by goldbeating. The skin consists of the processed outer membrane of an animal's intestine, typically an ox, and is interleaved with gold stock to facilitate batch production of many leaves at the same time.


To manufacture goldbeater's skin, the gut of oxen (or other cattle) is soaked in a dilute solution of potassium hydroxide, washed, stretched, beaten flat and thin, and treated chemically to prevent putrefaction. A pack of 1,000 pieces of goldbeater's skin requires the gut of about 400 oxen and is 1 inch (25 mm) thick. Up to 120 sheets of gold laminated with goldbeater's skin can be beaten at the same time, since the skin is thin and elastic and does not tear under heavy goldbeating.


The AE were master gold leaf artisans.
The gut has to be split, much like fine leather where the outer layer is pulled off, that is labor intensive, and then cured in a chemical solution.
So they concievably could have made the gas bags

edit on p00000010k261042017Thu, 19 Oct 2017 02:26:54 -0500k by punkinworks10 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 03:58 PM
link   

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.

So, about 40 of those to lift yer average pyramid stone.

Harte


Or one of them measuring 40 x 40 x 25 could do it (adding up to 40 k) .

Volume increases faster than one might think, when you grow the dimensions.



originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.


Yep, you can certain make a covering for a hot air balloon but how about hydrogen production and storage?


You couldn't make it all one balloon. Rather a bunch of tiny balloons (which is how the zeppelins of world war I were made) .

When you go to store it, you remove the balloons one at a time, and bring them into a cave or something.


Hydrogen production is actually pretty easy. You just need two wires connected to a battery. Nothing more.
Put the two wires into some water, and hydrogen will form at the cathode, and oxygen at the anode. Nothing more to it than that.

en.wikipedia.org...

As for the electricity, creating a battery doesn't really require an actual understanding of electricity. At the simplest level, you can put two metal objects made of different metals into a lemon, and that will produce electricity due to chemical interactions that happen to the metals.

Usually Zinc and Copper are good choices.

If you need more power, you can chain a lot of lemons together into one big battery.


en.wikipedia.org...



So all you need is for some smart guy to try putting two different metals into a lemon, and then put wires connected to them into some water, and notice the hydrogen bubbles forming.

He doesn't need to know why it is happening. He might come up with some silly theory about evil spirits drinking the lemon juice and burping out hydrogen, or whatever nonsense. Doesn't change the result any.



originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: ignorant_ape

Why let real world physics get in the way.
Things like,, weight of the rigging and envelope and how does that affect the volume and amount of heat required to lift object+rigging+envelope.


That and wind. Balloons fixed to the ground will spin unless they have tail sections and guidance. Having been in the Egypt a number of times, its a windy place except at dawn and dusk.

Wind at Cairo airport:

www.windfinder.com...

so about 25% of the time you have 9 knot winds or 17 kph or 11 mph......



If we're talking about a truly ancient civilization during the ice age, then Egypt had a different climate back then.


No matter what climate you might want it would have wind, wind is pretty common world wide.

The problem with creating a battery is that you need to make so many happenstances to arrive at something which makes something that is invisible, which is hard to contain but if you do and you have enough of it might float - for awhile. Now if the Baghdad battery was a battery all they would then need to do - is x and y. I'm thinking with a very weak battery how long would it take you to make enough gas - which is notoriously hard to contain - to launch something. A lot of practical problems. As far as I can recall no one in later centuries tried this as a construction method, cranes and ramps seems to be sufficient.

Lots and lots of technology there that didn't come together until a few centuries ago and didn't become practical until a few generations ago.



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 11:15 PM
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You must try to remember that alchemy was a thing in antiquity. There probably was lots of trial and error. The ancients appeared to understand the difference between an acid and a base. A metal and a non-metal.

And of course, many alchemists were eager to find some way to transmute a base metal into gold. All it would take would be for one of them to be touching two of the right pair of metals as they dip them in an acid, and they would feel a jolt. Once they feel that jolt, they would have to know they had discovered something.

They would then take this new phenomenon and start trying to see if they could use it to trigger other chemical reactions. Most of which include water to some degree or another, if only to dilute.




originally posted by: punkinworks10
Since people brought up numbers and such,

The Hindenburg, arguablely the pinnacle of rigid hydrogen lifted, powered airship, had a gas volume of 7,062,000ft^3, providing 511,500lb of lift.
The total weight of the vehicle was 484,000lb, leaving enoungh lift for 27,500lb.
Which works out to 256.8ft^3 of H2 to lift 1lb of weight taking the weight of containment and structure to hold that volume of gas into account.



Going off of wiki, 474,000 was the "average gross weight", but they were counting the crew, 90 passengers, their luggage,
and 10,000 kg of mail/cargo as "gross weight".

At least if I'm reading this passage correctly:


en.wikipedia.org...



Hindenburg was originally designed for helium, heavier than hydrogen but nonflammable. Most of the world's supply of helium comes from natural gas fields in the United States, which had banned its export under the Helium Control Act (1927) in an effort to conserve helium for use in US Navy airships. Eckener expected this ban to be lifted, but to save helium the design was modified to have double gas cells (an inner hydrogen cell protected by an outer helium cell).[1] The ban remained however, so the engineers used only hydrogen despite its extreme flammability.[2] It held 200,000 cubic metres (7,062,000 cu ft) of gas in 16 bags or cells with a useful lift of approximately 232 t (511,000 lb). This provided a margin above the 215 t (474,000 lb) average gross weight of the ship with fuel, equipment, 10,000 kg (22,000 lb) of mail and cargo, about 90 passengers and crew and their luggage.



posted on Oct, 24 2017 @ 11:31 AM
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Found an interesting article on the idea of Nasca balloons

www.hallofmaat.com...



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